Man, I went to a show on Sat. and broke down and bought my 1st modern engine. Let me start by saying that I’m a diehard postwar guy that really doesn’t want anything to do with the new stuff, TMCC, Loco’s, Acc’s, etc. etc. let alone the transformers as well., i.e. postwar is bullet proof and really enjoy it! Now, I picked up a Atlas switcher brand new for $200 that’s 10 years old, I asked the Altas rep that was there if this was a good price before buying it, and he said jump on it, I did! Now, on my way out the door I figured I talk to Lionel about whatever. They had the new Legacy TMCC there and were showing folks how it works. I started playing 20 questions with him, and he said I need to step out of the stone age. He kinda P.O.ed me with his comment about the stone age, and was evasive in some of my questions, but I’ve been studying Lionel’s system as well as MTH’s., in short, screw Mike, I hate him and wouldn’t buy any of his stuff period! At any rate, I really like this new Atlas loco and have been thinking about upgrading some of my PW loco’s to work with this system as 7/8’s of my loco’s the horn’s don’t work and Im tired of dicking with them, and Im not far behind the same with e-units. Do I stay a simpleton or get outta the stone age? so my questions are.
Who’s has upgraded loco’s w/TMCC? How do you like it? What company did you get your boards from? Have you noticed improvement in loco performance? Im using a Z that puts out 25v and everywhere I’ve read, they say 18v, would this cause problems with upgraded electronics?
Yo StubbsO. I have mainly all postwar stuff. A few new things tossed in. No TMCC. I work at a LHS and he has TMCC. WOW!!! I love it. there are so many functions to tap into, just the idea of coupling and uncoupling the engine or tender anywhere is great, crew talk/Tower com is awesom and the sounds are just wonderful. I am moving into the late 2oth century, with a CAB-1 to control my conventional stuff. When I can, I will updrade to TMCC. The upgrade from ERR look fairly simple, if the BEEP upgrade (which I have done) is any indication. If you can, go for it!
I think that you would be better off upgrading your post war horns in your older locos, you can buy sound boards from either Williams Trains or TAS studios online and get the horn units working again. As for myself I am some what of a penny pincher so that is what I would do. The newer horn units will work fine with the older transformers.
I bought a DCS unit and have only one PS-2 locomotive to use with it so I can’t say that buying a command control system is really worth the extra money. Also the newer locomotives will cost extra money to have TMCC or DCS in them.
As for the guy saying for you to step out the “Stone Age” that guy lost a sale! Also it is a very crude remark to tell somebody at a show.
Can’t tell you about TMCC except that it will cost over $300.00 a locomotive to install if it don’t have it already built in, then after that is the cost of the TMCC base unit and handheld remote. So is it worth your money to go to TMCC or not is something that you need to think about!!
Leaving the unfortunate Lionel Rep and his idiotic statement out of the equation, you have to answer the folowing question:
Which is it? Do you truly appreciate PW for being “bullet proof,” or do you tire of it because you need to tinker with reluctant horns and recalcitrant e-units?
Your post portrays disjunction: Do you admire the simple qualities of PW gear, or do you like the convenience of Modern gear? It’s also realy a false dilemma: you can run both without having to decide on one or the other.
In any case, don’t kid yourself into thinking that the modern stuff won’t give you troubles. It will. And it won’t be as simple to fix as PW. If you replace your horns and e-units with circuit boards, eventually, you’ll have to replace the replacements. You won’t be able to fix them. do you enjoy working on the horns and e-units? If not, swapping in new (but possibly expensive) parts maybe your path to happiness. If you do enjoy the tinkering, the Modern stuff will probably bore you.
No one else–least of all a manufacturer’s sales rep–can decide this fundamental question for you.
[As an aside, I wonder what the rep would think of my PREwar, Standard Gauge addiction. What came BEFORE the Stone Age?]
Lee is right about the cost, just for the CAB-1, adapter cord and PowerMaster base (which is switchable between conventional and TMCC. I’ll be using my KW. The cost is $150. I should have this all up and running next Sunday.
I not sure about the boards, but I’d trust Lee on the figures. ElectricRR.com and you can price it for your self.
Stubbs stay as you are. I’m a stone age guy myself. I bought TMCC and tried it. It’s like programming yer VCR… Running trains becomes a series of button pushes in sequence… DCS is worse and Legacy worse still. That good old transformer handle is all you’ll ever need.
ASSUMING you decided to pursue upgrading, I would definetly recommend looking at what your going to upgrade, check what it would cost to replace the same engine as a new one with the electronics. THEN decide if you want to procede with the upgrade. ESPECIALLY, given the improved detail of the newer engine. I’ve upgraded 3 engines, no more not worth it, IMO.
I don’t know about the cost of TMCC & related stuff but the DCS system cost me almost $300.00 for just the DCS unit & handheld remote control over a year ago. The switch control box or TIU was another $80.00. Command control adds up quickly when talking money!!
The price I mentioned for updating to TMCC was for a K-Line GG-1 that has a TMCC plug-in connector on it already, also the price was over 6 months ago so it may be higher now.
I received the same treatment from Lionel when I inquired about a product that was new. Evasive and rude must be what they are instructed to be when asking questions. They always seem to go “round-about the bush”, if you know what I mean. On the other hand, I did not have those problems with MTH and Williams.
But seriously, there is nothing wrong with postwar. I have 2 postwar engines myself, and if you want to stay with postwar, then do it, but if you want to “step out of the stone age” then do it.
My 2 cents: If you like your new engine, and would like to upgrade to TMCC, I would go ahead and do it. I would figure in the price of the items to allow you to still run your conventional engines as-is. I opted for a new ZW and command set with the base and cab-1. You can get by cheaper if you already have good transformers. This will allow you to run both your postwar and modern engines you may decide to buy in the future, without having to upgrade you postwar engines, and allow all of them to be run by remote control!
The thought of modifying my postwar engines just doesn’t appeal to me. Postwar e-units, whistles, and horns frustrate me as well, but in the right mindframe, with a cup of coffee and a good TV show, I sometimes find it relaxing cleaning and fine-tuning these items. The modern stuff is nice, too. I enjoy not hearing the buzz and getting the slow speeds, but they have problems too, as others have mentioned.
If you want to repair your horns on your post war engines I would think of other than williams now don’t get me wrong williams trains are a great product but my only fault with them is there whistle/horn as all it can do is the (I think I have the count right) 3 longs and 2 shorts and a long (crossing blow) every time you hit horn/whistle thats all you can get you can’t do your own set up. if your happy with that then great. I have it in one of my lionel diesel sets that had no horn and one in a tender to add whistle to it also . the good feature is it has bell but you can only do one or the other at a time and you have to hit the button again to turn off the bell. In all its a fine system but you get more out of the others. [2c]
as for upgrading your post war I really don’t believe its worth it unless you never plan to sell any as you’ll never recoup your investment. I thought about it myself a few times but not with my post war but my engines that were newer but didn’t have it like my 8659 Virginians and my williams B&O Sharknoses (A-B-B-A ) was also going to get power trucks for the 2 B and the dummy A. By time I got done it would have been over $2000.00 for all to have power trucks and command control in all so I could run them all at one time . Also I would of had 8 power trucks kinda hard on a transformer even a ZW new or old.
Stubbs, I run conventional only. Some PW. Some new. I also had horn/whistle troubles. I looked into TMCC and DCS, but I couldn’t afford upgrading everything to a command system (price of command system + price of upgrading a dozen locos…YUK). What I ended up doing was installing Electric RR’s sound units in much of my equipment. These are about $55 each and sound great in conventional mode. They can also be used by TMCC should I ever upgrade them to Electric RR’s TMCC boards. I was selective about my upgrades. No problem upgrading a 2026 steamer because they’re not particularly valuable (out went the air whistle, in went ERR’s sound commander). The 2023 Anniversary set however was left stock for obvious reasons. I hear good things about Atlas locos. Williams locos are GREAT if your a PW guy. I have several and have upgaded the sound in half of them, just so they sound different than the other Williams stuff on the layout.
As far as the E-units go, I cleaned up the mechanical E-units, and they’ve been working fine. But they can be replaced with electronic ones as well.
If I do jump to TMCC/Legacy, it will be after somebody offers Legacy upgrades for my present equipment at a reasonable price. I’ll buy the Legacy system, then upgrade one loco at a time.
With the same yadda yadda about it being personal preference already said. New stuff sucks in my two-cents. Although i collect trains for the nostalgia of it. To me anything out of the stone age was made after WWII. I feel the trains are no different then cars. I have a 65 barracuda and an 81 Vw scirocco. I can work on both of them, they lack navigation and power windows, and all kinds of ridiculously un-needed electronics but they are absolutely seat puckering fun to drive. My new jetta sucks, not that its a bad car, i just cant fix it when it breaks. Im sick of paying the dealership 80 dollars to plug it into the fancy flux capacitor lightsabre computer thingy everytime an idiot lite bleeps. In short i prefer simple electronics on trains that have proven themselves for 75 years. I dont need anymore plastic foreign technology melting on my track. Read Lou’s article in the new CTT (Views from the underground) about Williams, maybe it will help with your decision.
If you were to make the jump all at once it would cost an arm and a leg. My suggesstion if you want to do some upgrading as far as control is concerned, but not totally TMCC at this time, you could go with a Command Base & Cab-1 Controller and a Track Power Controller utilizing your existing transformer. With this arrangement you get the benefits of remote control operation of existing non-command locos regardless of age or brand, and in the future should you upgrade existing or buy new command locos this same arrangement will facilitate their operation as well.
Doug has said exactly what I’m doing. The TMCC Powermaster base, CAB-1 & patch cord to hook my KW up was $150. This allows me to remotely control, in conventional, my PostWar Trains. IF I ever get to TMCC (which, in my opinion is pretty cool), then the price of admission will be less. I could buy an equipped engine or upgrade some of my newer engines with a board. I don’t have upgrade all at once, I have remote control on everything and the price, for me, was reasonable. I mean, $150? If I’m desperate, I’ll sell on of my S-2 Turbos and get that back!! [2c]
I am also running a lot of P/W stuff. the tmcc offers a command base for for the command stuff and a power master base for the non command stuff. both are controlled by the CAB-1 remote. train world (http://trainworld.com/lionel/LIONEL%202007%20VOL1.htm ) has the command base and cab-1 remote for $114, just add a power master base for your P/W stuff for about another $50 and you can control everything
Postwar is considered stone age? If I were the regional representative of that individual, he’d be written up in a heartbeat. To think a Lionel representative, talking down the history of Lionel. Nothing like biting the hand that feed you is there. Enough said. Postwar is what Postwar is. They are fun, durable, and yes, sometimes cranky machines. But can be quickly and usually inexpensively repaired. They are also what I enjoy to run on my layout.
When the youngsters come by to run the trains, it’s because THEY want to run the trains. The Postwar trains are made for fun, the kids love to pull the throttle, to push the buttons to operate a switch, push another to dump coal, another to uncouple a car, etc. It’s that action/reaction that I find the kids love, and laugh about. It’s learning if you don’t pay attention, the engine derails at the switch. It’s for the kids that I expand my layout. That’s what the stone age is to myself.
As far as cars. It was mentioned about car repair. Well look at my Avatar. I challenge anyone on this forum to stop by, drive that Model AA and drink a latte while talking on a cell phone. It’s been said “they don’t make cars like they used to”. Drive that wonderful old truck for a day, and you’ll be glad they don’t. So It’s all in what your layout represents. And what you enjoy. If you want to upgrade, I’d take the advice of others here, and go slow.
FYI, The first Modern Lionel I purchased was the Hogwarts, again for the youngsters. Not impressed, but works for them.