Sorry for the newbie question but I am attempting to acquire the prototypically correct signals for my Appalachian coal hauling railroad set in the late 1950’s. I know the basics of railroad signals some of the basics but I was wondering if there was a database or possibly a web page or other source where I can find out what signal went where and what type of signal was used by what railroads. I know that some signals were unique to certain railroads and some like semaphore signals were used only up until a certain time. Where would you locate things such as signal bridges, dwarf signals (in yards only I believe) are the signals used on branch lines different then the ones used on main lines? Etc. etc. I know whats involved in making them all work electrically and indicators on panels etc. For example I will have a double ended yard in one section of the new layout and I intend all turnouts to be controlled by tortoise switch machines via “the hare” or “the rabbit” stationary decoder. hooking up the dwarf signal is pretty much a no brain-er so even though this isn’t going to be a cheap undertaking I figure the alternative using hand throws mounted under the table and hooking up the signals via the points on the turnouts or by using Blue Point manual turnout controls.
Any help you guys can give me pointing me in the right direction will be greatly appreciated.
Major considerations are:
Single or multiple track?
CTC or ABS signals?
What is the speed on the main track?
How many intermediate signals will you have between absolute signals?
Semaphores lasted until just recently in some areas. Your best bet is to pick an area and a railroad and study it. Otherwise the answer is “it depends”. One railroad might change the signal on one line and leave the existing signal system in place on the others around it or they may have a completely different system than the other railroads that parallel or cross it. Changing from ABS to CTC means changing the signal locations, and the indications they give.
Over multiple main tracks.
Is the main or the branch CTC or ABS? Is there a major speed difference between the main and the branch?
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For example I will have a double ended yard in one section of the new layout and I intend all turnouts to be controlled by tortoise switch machines via “the hare” or “the rabbit” stationary decoder. hooking up the dwarf signal is pretty much a no brain-er so even though this isn’t going to be a cheap undertaking I figure the alternative using hand throws mounted under the table and hook
If you’re modeling a generic Appalachian coal hauler, you can use whatever signal types suit your fancy, but if you’ve decided to follow a specific prototype your best bet is to join that railroad’s historical society and tap its reference library for data.
Just to really confuse the issue, the three major players in West Virginia coal used three different styles of signal heads! The N&W used PRR style position lights and the B&O used a color-position design peculiar to that railroad. I’m not sure what you would find on the C&O.
From the point of view of installing and wiring model signals, the standard color light type with separate lenses for each color are probably the simplest, with single-lens searchlights (using bi-color diodes) a fairly close second. Semaphores require some kind of mechanical actuator, and the three-position type commonly used in the United States need an actuator that will hit the center position accurately - fun to play with if you’re related to Rube Goldberg, expensive if you use precision servos.
I’m following a prototype that, in the early 1960s, used color light high signals on the busier lines, position-light dwarfs to indicate turnout position and cable-driven two-position lower quadrant semaphores on light-traffic branchlines.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Thanks Chuck that help but as you mentioned just throws another monkey wrench in the works. I’ve been finding out more and more that railroads did a lot things specific to themselves. I guess it wasn’t until the USRA that the brakes were put on things like that so to speak.
I am running a generic coal operation so to speak not any specific road but rather old equipment leased or purchased from some of the bigger names. I do not plan on running any sort of CTC machine or anything of that nature. As I intend to basically follow the train around I will switch most turnouts form the cab control and others from switches located on the fascia at that location. Only reason I even entertain the possibility of a switch on the fascia is I might not have enough address to control all of the turnouts. But where and when a turnout is controlled form the cab there will be a display on the fascia with indicator lights and the address printed on a label. As I am only one person and even though it will be a very large railroad I don’t intend to have formal operating sessions. That’s ok if thats your bag but mine is more of a very large working diorama.
Hi Allegheny2-6-6-6
Not sure about your specific prototype influences but as you are not following a particular railway.
I would sugest the commonly avalable search light signals, signal gantries (bridges) tend to be used where multipal signals are needed in the one place and there is not enough room for the signal masts to be where they should be.
Dwarf signals are used to control shunting moves in certain areas not just some sections of a yard, and should not be confused with point indicators which show only which track the points are set for
They (point indicators) do not give the driver Authority to move just tell him which line he will end up on.
You could also forget signals and go with train orders or another possabilaty is electric train staff where a staff is the drivers authority to enter a secton and easily represented with a staff cabin (looks like an oversize phone cabin) at the crossing loops.
regards John Busby
We lone wolves should get together next full moon and have a howl-off…[swg]
You could get away with three-light Automatic Block Signals, or even train-order lights or semaphores at your stations. An ABS system should have detectors and requires some fancy circuitry, while prototype train order signals were operated manually, depending on whether or not there were orders for a specific train. Both would be appropriate for late steam and transition eras. Today, with direct-to-dispatcher radio and track warrants, there may be no signals at all on lower-traffic routes.
I question why you would use decoders to throw turnout points if you are going to be moving with the train. The only switch machines on my layout throw points that have to be controlled from two different locations. All others are manually controlled, with an electrical switch in the throw mechanism to control hot frogs and signal circuits.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
So you really don’t want a “block signal system”. You really just want “switch indicators” that tell you which way the switch is lined.
A switch has 3 routes into it since there are 3 tracks connected to it. The route that continues on the same track is the “normal” route. The route that diverts to another track is the “reverse” route.
You can put 3 signals at each switch, all facing away from the switch. One on the single main just beyond the points, one next to the main and one next to the siding at the clearance points. The one on the single main can have two heads. When the switch is normal it will display green over red. When it is lined reverse it will display red over yellow (or red over lunar/white). The signal next to the siding will have one head. When the switch is normal it will display red. When it is lined reverse it will display green. The signal next to the main will have one head. When the switch is normal it will display green. When it is lined reverse it will display red.
That is about the simplest arrangement that is somewhat prototypical.
Dave H.
I am building and installing the signal system on our club layout. (B&O) There are some links I am providing below. If you are modeling a coal hauling line, even though freelance, you could research the signals used on large coal hauling RR’s, like the C&O.
http://www.railroadsignals.us/
http://www.rrsignalpix.com/pdfs.html
http://www.integratedsignalsystems.com/index.htm
http://gsee.sdf-us.org/signals/siglinks/siglinks.html
ISS sells complete signals or just the parts so you can build them yourself. The Digitrax SE8C signal board is a very good interface system for signal control by a computer. Or CTI-Electronics is a good alternate for computer control. Also, there are a few companies around that have independent signal simulation boards. See this thread: http://cs.trains.com/forums/1420421/ShowPost.aspx
Elmer
Thank you for the links they have proven to be very helpful. I am not the type of modeler that some might call “A rivet counter” but my goal is to make my railroad believable. Pro typical as far as all structures, vehicles, signals etc. will fit the era. So if someone “In the know” were to look at the finished project ( if it fact you ever are finished ) would say ok I can see this being Appalachia in the late 1950’s. If I happen to have the wrong paint scheme on a freight car or the wrong years or maybe an engine on the line was retired by that time I am not going to be overly concerned with it. If Allen Keller decides to show up one day and he wants to add my layout to the list of “Great Model Railroads” well then I’ll deal with it. Something tells me that will not be a concern.
As far as why would I want turnouts to be controlled by a stationary decoder rather then a toggle switch mounted on the fascia, well with the first section of railroad being 30’x40’ it may be a little difficult at times to be every where I am supposed to be at the right time. and why not take full advantage of all the technology that DCC has to offer. I know someone who has a rather large layout who runs dcc, but runs manual ground throws, has sound in most of his engines but shuts it off most of the time because he says it too annoying, doesn’t run any kind of signaling system and only runs one train at a time. So why have DCC at all?
I have a lot of respect for the guys who run operating sessions and have CTC machines, and car cards and the lot but thats not me. I have curiosity to the point where I would enjoy being a fly on the wall and just observe and see what a “real operational model railroad” is like, but to be totally honest when I run my trains or even just build bench work or lay track I’m 13 years old again. A time before I knew anything about girls, bills, a job other then my paper r
Well to answer your question Chuck in a word simplicity. With a Tortoise switch machine which will make up the bulk of my machines signal wiring and over all wiring in general it can’t get much simpler. Power wires off the main buss, the decoder plus into the tabs on the bottom of the Tortoise, and you run a couple of wires up the the signals and your done. You still have the option to also install a toggle at the fascia as well if I read the schematic correctly. The thing that sold me on DCC was the fact of how much it simplified wiring your railroad.