I would like to add a working signal system to my small n scale layout but am struggling to make sense of what I need to do this. What are the basics I need to have to start with? I have an NCE PowerCab and the layout is 24" x 64" with a double track mainline around the outside. There is a small yard on one side and a couple of industrial sidings. I would like to have a bi-directional signal for each mainline and a signal for the entrance to the yard and sidings. I know what signals I would like to have but I’m not sure what I need in the way of detectors and blocks and all of the support system to make it work.
Thankyou for any input
Modeling the BN and CNW in N Scale in the late '70s midwest
First, what kinds of singal are you thining of, what railroad, what era. Are you making block signals, interlocking signals, or both?
What is your budget. Are you going to buy something, or make something from scratch.
LION builded signals, and control systems from scratch. But him is on vacation in New York and Pennsylvaina and so not has not picks and details available.
For block signals him builded an extensive system of relays. For interlocking signals, these are prototypically operated by levers in the tower, modelers tend to operate them in tandam with the switch motors which will indicate routing, but not authority.
LIONS love their signals so write to him next month and him will give you details.
I am modeling the Burlington Northern and Chicago and Northwestern in the late 1970’s, approximately 1978. I would like to use a double track signal bridge with 3 light signals over the main lines for bi-directional operation, probably the vertical style. I would also like to have a signal to allow authority to enter and exit the yard. I’m not really sure if I need a signal at the entrance to the sidings that are off the main line, or what the prototypes practice was for that. I’m thinking that for the mainlines that the signal would always display a green light unless I manually set it to display red or yellow. The same would apply to the yard and other signals.
If I’m going to manually set the signal displays then would I maybe just need to wire 3 way toggle switches and not need a detection system of any kind? I am building this layout as my sort of learning layout and am trying to do it as cheap as possible. I’m using Kato unitrack and mostly all natural scenery materials I gather out of the back yard.
I’ve used a lot of his basic circuits and they all work very good. I built most my own H-2 single Search Light Heads from K&S brass with bi-color red/green LEDs (with both red & Green on you get a reasonable good amber) signals using Paisley’s circuits and I’m a very happy camper. I did a bit of redesign to fit my layout but they are basically Paisley circuits. The amber color in a bi-color LED has a slight red glow when viewed off angle in one direction and slight green on the opposite side. The bi-color amber is not for rivet counters but OK for visitors. If you are going to use three color signal heads that’s not a problem.
To have working signals you need a minimum of 3 signals on a loop. The signal infront of the train would show green, the next signal yellow and the signal behind the train would show red. Each signal should be 1 train length apart.
If you have a yard that can be entered from either direction, then that adds another block. that would mean the main has to be at least 4 train lengths long to have working signals.
You probably don’t really have"'sidings" if you have a double main, since a ‘siding’ is a place that trains meet and pass. You probably have industry tracks and typically they wouldn’t be signalled per se.
Without seeing your layout I am going to guess that a layout that small is not going to be able to have “working signals”. Probably you will want to use the signals as switch indicators to indicate when the switches are lined on a diverging route.
The block that the train is in displays red in either direction against trains entering that block. The blocks on either side of that display an amber aspect indicating that the next block is occupies. Subsequent blocks aproaching our occupied block display green indicating that the next signal will not be red.
Interlocking signals are normally red and are only cleared by the tower when the operator reverses his lever.
I think Dave is right about, essentially, using the signals as switch indicators. So, if a switch is set for diverging from the main, the signal facing the train approaching the switch would show yellow. If the switch is thrown for straight through, it would show green. There would be signals facing “away” from the switch, of course. They would show red if the switch were against them. And would show either yellow or green, otherwise, as appropriate.
Note that there is NO detection.
The lights change color, and they are pretty much sort of slightly accurate. The change of color is generated by your throwing the switches, and is usually done by adding another set of poles to your toggle switches. And maybe a relay.
On an upcoming layout, I’ve got a switch that’s at the end of a siding. I want the three appropriate signals. I expect to control the signal colors based on the switch position–super simple, but fun to watch.
Detection is a whole 'nother story. THAT is “real” signaling, and I don’t think you want to bother.
People who actuall know something about signaling may well correct my statements. But it’s a start.
NO, no, no, LION tried that. It is only good for setting up the scene for photography.
Detection of LION consists of reed switch between the rails, and a magnet glued to the bottom of a locomotive. Train passes and a 4PDT relay pulls. One set of contacts holds the relay. The next set of contacts displays a red signal to protect this block. Another set tells the PREVIOUS block to display a YELLOW signal, and the 4th set of contacts breaks the holding circuit of the previous relay so that it will no longer display red, but rather will display eiter yellow or green depending on the position of this relay as set up by the third set of contacts.
Ergo one reed switch and one 4PDT relay for each automatic block signal you employ.
INTERLOCKING SIGNALS on the other hand are controlled by levers in the tower. After you align the plant, you clear the signals.
I like your way of block signaling control much better than anything I’ve tried. It might not be high tech but I’m sure it works flawlessly. If I didn’t have my signal system in and working your way would be the way I’d go.
You will see my suggestions for using the LogicRail Signal Animator which, I believe, is a good compromize for our small-world layouts.
You might have a harder time to try to conceal the photocell or IR emitter/collectors in N scale but it can be done.
The signal can be “forced” to red so you can use the auxiliary contact from a switch machine to show a blocked route, then when the switch is thrown, the signal realistically changes to clear, after a slight delay.
Or what I have done on the main is to install an “East/West” toggle switch so the signal is forced to red when there is opposing traffic.
For me, it is an economical compromise and adds realism without too much involvement.
The signals on my layout use NCE BD20 current detectors to operate small DPDT relays I get from allelectronics.com. My circuitry is based on the circuits used by the NYCTA in the Subway modified for my use. They have traffic direction control as well as showing block occupancy. They work on DC or DCC and are stand alone, not needing a computor interface or JMRI. My circuits for automatic signals have been posted here somewhere