I see Tomar Industries sells working semaphores, but I don’t know what they are used for (not knowing squat about railroad signaling). I want to set up indicators to tell me which way my far turnouts are facing at a glance and I thought these semaphores would do the trick. I’m modeling the late 40s early 50s transition era in HO, would these be appropriate turnout indicators? It’s either these or the switch stands which they also make…though I like the semaphores cause it’s they’re easier to see with the boards.
It depends on how close to prototype you want to be.
Prototype signals (in the US) indicate the speed the train is allowed to operate. From this, block occupancy, track condition and route are inferred.
However, there is nothing stopping you from using signals as turnout position indicators. Many modelers (including myself) use trackside signals in this manner.
I know almost next-to-nothing about signaling. However, your strategy for the semaphore will not necessarily following prototype practices for turnout indicators.
Signals were used by the RRs and indicated whether it was safe for a train to enter a certain section of track called a “block”. A block was usually 1-2 miles in length.
If the signal showed a red light, it meant that a train already occupied that block and all other trains approaching that block were to stop. A Yellow light meant that the locomotive could enter that block but should proceed at a reduce speed. Green meant “high ball” or that the block was clear and a train could proceed onto the next block at normal speed.
If you are wanting some type of indicator to tell you which way a turnout is thrown, you could do a couple of things:
Use “dwarf” (low profile) lights at each turnout - These the railroads would have used very commonly around your time era.
Use red and green-colored lights on your fascia - either at or near the turnout, or on a central control panel of some kind, where you operating your layout from.
J.P., the other thing to keep in mind is that simple semaphores in the later 40s and 50s had already or were being replaced by more modern or sophisticated lighted signals. Also, if there are several turnouts in a certain area of your layout, and you only have one signal, you don’t immediately know which of those turnouts is the problem.
Sure you can use a semaphore to indicate turnout position. But usually semaphores that displayed a turnout position were double headed such as Tomar #841 or #842. The top blade indicates the mainline position and speed while the lower blade indicates turnout position and speed.
So say you want to route a train onto the siding. Top blade should be red, bottom blade should be green. Or you want to take the mainline…so top blade green bottom blade red. The amber aspects typically indicate a reduced speed and block occupancy. So say the next block signal will be red and you are entering the siding controlled by your semaphore. So top blade red bottom blade amber. This might be a bit confusing the way I laid it out so take a look at these links that were helpful to me:
But if I were you I would go with a double headed searchlight signal, Tomar #859. These are what I use. This way you don’t have the added complexity of a motor to control the semaphore blades. And searchlight signals are appropriate from the 1920s to the present. So they are perfect for me since I model the Santa Fe in HO scale (circa 1957).
tstage ilustrates a popular misconception among MRRs. A dwarf signal (also called, in RR slang, a` pot signal) differs from a standard signal only in size. They’re used where space or visibility problems preclude a standard signal (such as between double tracks). A red pot signal means exactly what a red mast signal would mean in the same spot. That said, if you’re more interested in MRR utility than strict prototype fidelity, a pot signal would work fine.
Well?..I thought I was implying the same thing. I was NOT infering that the dwarf or “pot” signals were different from their taller counterparts: Red is still red; yellow is still yellow; green, green. I was actually thinking along the same lines that, if space and concentration of turnouts is an issue, the use of dwarf signals would actually come in handy in that type of situation and be less confusing.
Generally speaking, a signal with one head (i.e. one set of red-yellow-green lights, or one semaphore blade) is a block signal. A signal with two or more heads is an interlocking signal. Interlockings would be used at junctions where tracks cross each other, or where tracks diverge or join together.
<>Imagine you’re running on a single track mainline and the line splits ahead of you - one leg is the mainline, the other is a branchline. As you approach the turnout, you see a two-headed signal, each head having green-yellow-red lights it can show. A signal of green on top and red on the bottome (“green over red”) means the turnout is set for the mainline, and the next two blocks are clear. Red on top and green on the bottom (“red over green”) means the turnout is sending you onto the branchline, and the next two blocks are clear. Red over red means a train is on the block ahead of you, and you must stop.
<> Imagine you’re on a train, and coming to a place where another railroad crosses yours at grade. You would probably see a two headed signal before the crossing. It could either display green over red (proceed) or red over red (stop). The lower head may be a “dummy” which can only indicate red.
An important difference between block and interlocking signals is that block signals are generally “permissive”, i.e., you can reduce speed and go thru the red signal, as long as you’re going slow enough to stop the train if you see another train ahead of you. Interlockings are “absolute” - you have to stop and remain stopped until the signal changes.
Hmmm I may be more confused than ever[:)]. I should have been more specific, what I have is a “simple” 4x8 oval double mainline with crossovers at the north east and south east end of the layout with no real Roadname solidly defined but I’m thinking/leaning toward PRR, EL, CNJ, New York Central or AT&SF (most of those could be seen running together right?). The north X-over is at the far end from the controll panel. I want something to show what way the turnouts are for the X-over. I really only need one at the north end but for continuity I would put one at both X-overs. I’m looking for functionallity more so than prototype operational correctness.
Now the searchlight tower that Southwest Cheif suggested might be the way to go for simplicity as was pointed out. Would I need something like an Atlas Snap Relay to operate it? Then on my industry sideings I could use a swtich stand.
I can see why you are confused, as the thread replies are full of mis-conceptions about signalling in general. You are looking to show routes only through x-overs only (interlocking plant).
There are two types of signals, “absolute” and “intermediate” (number plate present, permissive), they are all called block signals. What you are looking for are absolute signals to protect an interlocking plant (a juction, crossing or array of switches). Interlockings can have one to three heads depending if diverging routes are in the picture. In your case, you are not concerned with speed so that limits your choices, no need for three blades. What you are looking at though are diverging routes so, you will need a signal that has two heads. If you were just protecting a diamond (crossing, no diverging routes), you could get by with one headed signals
Sounds like what you would want to install are Tomar’s double headed semaphores at each of the entrance points to your x-over sets. For the straight route, signal would show green over red “clear”. For diverging route, signal would show red over green for “diverging clear”. Since you don’t have block detectors, this is the simpliest way to get what you want. The Tomar semaphores take a little patients to install but they well worth the effort. They look and great work flawlessly. Searchlights and light over lights will work as well.
If you are using Tortoise switch machines it is a simple installation to use a bi-color LED as a dwarf signal indicator just wired in series with one of the leads powering the Tortoise.
There are several suppliers (e-bay) that offer a bi-color LED in a small housing that can be dressed up to look like a dwarf signal and cemented in place ahead of the turnout. The only downside is that as the train passes the indicator will still show green whereas the prototype would have dropped to red. It’s not true to prototype but you could use a yellow/green pair of led’s to show normal/reverse (or straight/diverging) with some of the other led housings that are available.
Model semaphores get expensive because each head requires some sort of operating mechanism and these run about $40 each!
To me, the best solution is to use Logic Rail Signal Animator which can also be wired to one of the Tortoise aux. terminals to drop the signal when the switch is thrown against movement. In addition the SA-x includes a photocell which will drop the signal when a train passes, then time out to yellow… then green! Pretty effective but still reasonably priced.
It’s not really a tower, just a signal with two heads. To change the lights I use a single rotary toggle switch like the one pictured below. I wired the two signal heads together so I could use one toggle. So I can have red over green or green over red. I could have wired each signal head separately so I could get more combinations including amber, but I only wanted to show the switch indication, I didn’t need a block signal. I think this is exactly what you want to do too.
If you do go for the Tomar searchlight signal be sure to use resistors to prevent the LEDs from blowing out. I used different values as the green color is a bit dim and the red is brighter so I tried to even them out with different valued resistors.
Here’s what the Tomar search light signal I’m refering to looks like (note the “high” green and low red means the switch is closed and lined for the mainline):
On industrial sidings, etc…I use the Tomar lighted switch stand. They are Tomar #H-851 and look like this:
