Simplified Car Cards and Waybills

Ok, you win.

But I don’t need software to tell me that the 50’ automobile box cars need to to/from the auto assembly plant, the piggyback cars need to go to/from their loading/loading facility, the hoppers go to/from the coal mine and the power/plant, etc, etc.

You want a software solution, you are the guy for that, not me.

In fact, off topic side bar, I am ditching my Quick Books accounting software as I move into semi retirement in favor of simple Word invoices and a hand written ledger as Quick Books now includes 100 times more features than I need and has quadrupled in price in three years.

And again, depending on the layout, why not mix “train orders” with “switch lists” to simulate wider aspects of operation beyond the picking up and setting out of individual cars? Unless of course the whole layout is just an ISL?

And again, yes, most of the guys I know rewrite switch lists/train orders for each ops session and stage equipment on the layout as needed. Some use sone sort of spread sheet/software, some don’t.

To me, that is a BIG difference, do you let some computer software “generate” the next round of activity? Or do you create it yourself?

I’m not much for video games or AI.

Sheldon

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When in hell did the New Haven swap diesel for electric in the New York area?

Electric to diesel was at New Haven and perhaps Cedar Hill. Trains to Grand Central, including originally with FL9s, switched to third-rail power at Woodlawn and ran down to Manhattan from there.

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One general statement about how people approach this hobby. For any number of personal reasons and interests, some people are focused on the minutia of railroading and some on the immensity of it.

And a few pick and choose which things require which approach.

So I have found that operating schemes are very personal to each layout that I have operated on, and I consider them all hybrids tweaked to fit each layout.

My interest in operation lies in the immensity of railroading, hence the layout desigen for 40 car trains and a busy double track mainline.

Sheldon

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no, I don’t want to have run software each time we have a op session, because, as i said, each cycle needs to complete before the next can start.

That’s why i’m interested in hearing about other approaches
you said, “there are lots of approaches to this”.
.

goot point … but off topic

good. back on topic

how do you create it yourself?

again … off topic (see a pattern)?

in New Haven

[quote]> Woke_Hoagland:

When in hell did the New Haven swap diesel for electric in the New York area?

in New Haven[/quote]

New Haven is 90 miles away from New York, in a completely different state.

Philadelphia is 90 miles away from New York, in a completely different state. Are you claiming that Philadelphia is a suburb of New York, too?

Many generations of Mory’s members say ‘bless your heart’ or the blue-and-white equivalent when you suggest they are really New Yorkers.

where do you think power should be switched east of New York?
power was porbably switched near Newark on the west side

In the DC days, it was switched at Manhattan Transfer, which is near Harrison. I believe steam power was turned and serviced at Meadows, but don’t sue me if wrong. I believe the electrics were serviced at Sunnyside.

I don’t remember where any progressive change points were made as the AC electrification was built out between New York and Philadelphia – I think I just ASSumed the whole works was built and then opened at the same time. Someone like Bezilla will have documented how the electrification to Harrisburg’s power changes were made (ISTR for a while steam was changed in at North Philadelphia for trains going to the west)

Of course the reason for electrifying to Harrisburg was much more than to serve the state capital; I don’t really think New Haven was always intended as the end of Morgan’s electrification plans. The work involved in electrifying the cutoff at Morrisville, the A&S, and the C&PD… but not the Northern Central… also bears witness, I think. Even as late as 1943 electrification to Pittsburgh was seen as critical… but we know how that worked out with an early end to the Pacific War and the introduction of better F units…

Note that the New-York-centric part of the New Haven service effectively ended at Stamford, the end of the commuter runs. But the mainline power was changed further out, perhaps where there were better or larger steam facilities. And New Haven embraced the PRR alternative earlier – with all those DL109 pairs with 120mph gearing for their particular take on dual-service.

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Why is this off topic? Is the topic so narrow that we can’t talk about other aspects of operation which is all about simulating railroad operations?

You learn enough about how freight moves in the real world make up switch lists and train movements that simulate real life.

You don’t do silly parlor games like odd and even car numbers.

I will have an auto assembly plant on my layout. It will actually have two different sets of sidings - one for incoming parts, the other for finished cars outbound (having actually spent time in a real auto assembly plant, this is how they generally work). I have flat cars with loads of auto frames, and general box cars bringing other parts. And have automobile double door 50’ box cars commonly used to ship finished autos before the 1960’s, as well as few “experiential” open 50’ auto racks.

Auto assembly plants are big operations, you don’t service them car by car. Whole strings of freight cars are delivered to, and then leave the two areas. Six, eight, ten or more cars at a time, similar to real life for that kind of industry. Whole cuts of cars can be identified on a switch list by the first and last car in the cut, etc.

Yes, you have to think this out for each industry. You have to decide where they come from and where they go to based on the design and features of your layout.

In my case most traffic comes and goes from the staging, there will be very little on line origin to destination traffic.

The 40 car piggy train pulls into the yard, then the yard master, or one of his crews, moves it to the piggy yard for unloading. This is not done with a switch list that details all 40 cars - they are all inbound piggys that need to be unloaded. It is done with a train order.

All trains have a train number and manifest. Sometimes that manifest is a detailed list of different destinations (switch list), sometimes it contains whole blocks of cars for the auto plant, the boat yard, the lumber yard, etc.

Don’t let “rules” get in the way of providing just the necessary information to complete the task.

It is the yardmasters job to coordinate the connection between the mainline trains and the local/belt line/yard work trains. When a mainline train arrives, or needs to be made up to depart, he coordinates the crews.

Because these trains are “created” by you in advance, him and the crews have paperwork that is appropriate to that train - all the paperwork is not exactly the same format. Paperwork for trains that will be arriving and for trains that need to be made up and depart.

And tasks that don’t get done can often be incorporated into the next session.

But the yard master decides when each task is best done and knows what tasks need to be done 1st, 2nd, etc.

Yard master is one of my favorite jobs… Second is being the dispatcher.

Side bar, off topic - unlike what many modelers are doing, my dispatcher is not locked in a closet somewhere. He will actually have a good view of 70% of the layout. And his panel will not look like a prototype panel except for its linear design.

You make up plausible stories. My layout is in the Mid Atlantic, so the auto parts come mostly from the west, from the manufacturing belt of the upper Midwest. Finished cars move mostly west, but a few move east to the Atlantic coast to move north and south.

Create more work than can be done in one session, use the unfinished work as the starting point for the next session. Does not seem that hard to me, many of my friends do just that.

But it is all integrated, mainline and switching operations.

Just my view, but car card systems are for guys modeling little short lines or ISL’s. I like that aspect of operations, but not enough for it to be my whole layout focus.

I have my two belt line industrial areas to give me a taste of that.

Sheldon

the thread is too long already

it’s unclear to me how an op-session can be flexible by allowing a train to leave early before all switch lists are completed

thanks for explaining

sounds like the “process” is instead of

  • a somewhat randomly creating a 4 position car card moving boxcar between 4 locations on the layout
  • your process is looking at specific industries and routing specifc cars between (off layout) staging to that industry and back to staging. You’re specifically think about the loads being carried and the industries they are for.

so how do you implement this during operation?

  • is there a train from staging that services the assembly plant, or
  • or multiple blocks of cars for the the assembly plant part of multiple trains:
    • once including other cars carrying them from staging to a yard,
    • where they’re clasisified and
    • brought to the assembly, along with other blocks of cars, to the assembly plant?

is there

  • a single switch-list for the one train
  • separate switch lists for each train, or
  • are there multiple switch lists for each blocks of cars and each train is multiple switch lists?

are these switch list repeatedly used in cycles during op-sessions

i have more questions

the club has brewery, cement plant and lumber yard with cars specific for those locations that need to be routed to other destinations that handle those cars.

i think you’re suggesting that a boxcar from a machine shop would be routed specifically to a factory not to a textile mill that would ship fabric

is Sunnyside on the Northeast Corridor?

Electrification of the New Haven was completed in 1914. So why not run electric locomotives to New Haven and swap power there?

A train from staging could be any of these situations. It’s train order/manifest would contain the needed info for the yard master break up the train and get blocks of cars, and/or individual cars to their correct destination.

It may or may not contain a complete list of every car, depending on the situation.

No trains enter the visible portion of the layout from staging and go directly to an industry. They all go to the freight yard. There is only one visible operating freight yard on the layout.

Once a mainline train arrives at the yard, the yard master begins the process of breaking up the train and taking the necessary steps to forward the cars to their destination. That process will be different for different destinations.

At least seven of the destinations, including the four track piggy unloading facility, are directly accessible from the yard without entering or crossing the mainline. This is like an industrial belt line found in most major cities. Those destinations are served directly from the yard.

A second urban belt line, not shown on the drawing, is accessed via the passenger station trackage. So cars headed to those industries are organized into a local that must then get permission from the dispatcher to leave the yard, crossover the main, and enter the passenger terminal trackage. After which it proceeds to that industrial area and no longer impacts the mainline or the passenger terminal while it handles its setouts and pickups. That train will have a car by car switch list that was generated in advance and used by the yardmaster to build the train in the yard. That switch list will also show the yardmaster the disposition of those pickups when the train returns to the yard.

The incoming parts to the auto plant are served by good sized two track siding directly off the mainline. So cars bound there are organized into another local. A specific run just for the auto plant. Get permission from the dispatcher, go drop off the cut of cars and pick up the empty cars. Return them to the yard.

No outbound trains leave the yard until they are complete. But they are not all made up of “fresh” pickups. Cuts of cars from “previous” pickups maybe already sitting in the yard. Or outbound piggy cars may just need to be moved to the main yard and setup for departure. So there are fresh departures throughout the whole operating session. The piggy yard alone holds 80 plus cars, it is very possible a departing piggy train would need to leave before an arriving one could be moved into the piggy terminal for unloading and reloading. Piggy cars seldom move with out a load.

Not sure I understand your descriptions but various configurations are possible. The mainline train manifest and train order will include definitions of blocks of cars and their destinations, and/or individual switch lists for single cars with lone destinations as required.

The switch lists and train manifests will recycle, but possibly with minor changes.

Example or two:

A 100% piggy train needs no switch list. It pulls in, when space is available in the piggy terminal to goes there. Done. A new train order will move those cars out later or in the next session.

A train with a block of piggys and other mixed freight will have a simple note “piggys to terminal” and then there will be a switch list for the remaining cars.

Or a train might have empty auto cars, it will have a note “all empty auto boxes to loading facility”. And the remaining cars might all be lumber and say “six ACR box cars to ABC lumber”.

So sometimes cars will be identified by specific road and car number, other times not.

Car numbers can be hard to read, and while most of the industrial trackage is close to the front of the layout, streamlining this process is a plus.

Sheldon

If you really want to understand how railroads work in real life, and how that can be applied to model trains, find a copy of the “OPERATION HANDBOOK for model railroads” by Paul Mallery. Originally published by TAB books in 1979 and later by CARSTENS in 1991.

I don’t know if you are familiar with Paul Mallery, he was the primary founder of “The Model Railroad Club” in Union, New Jersey and one of the cutting edge modelers of the mid 20th Century.

https://www.themodelrailroadclub.org/

He authored a number of books on wiring, trackwork, operation, and more, as well as many magazine articles.

Sheldon

Remember the Penn Station electrification south on PRR was DC-only until the late Twenties, first with DD1s and then with those awful L5s. This was LIRR-style third rail.

Sunnyside is in Queens, west of the four tunnels under the East River. The PRR coach yard was there.

Note that the New Haven Hell Gate Bridge route ended in the New York Connecting Railroad to Bay Ridge. Only later did the branch to Penn Station become the major route. Electrification of the freight tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge didn’t occur until 1917.

what’s the difference between a “switch list” and “train mainfest”?

is a “train manifest” composed of multiple “switch lists”?

Officially on the prototype a manifest is list of everything on the train, car by car. For model purposes is is a list that allows a yardmaster to build the train or break up and distribute the cars to their destination.

On my layout it may be a car by car “switch list” or a hybrid list of car blocks and/or car by car lists, including “instructions”. And it is combined with the “train order” which describes the train by number, direction, motive power, point of origin, and destination of the whole train. It may also include an approximate departure time.

Example:

Train 456, departs staging track C02 at 6:35am, westbound to Potomac City yard. Power - F7 set 1250/1251/1252

Then the manifest descriptions wound be listed below.

Trains being made up and leaving the yard would have this document as well. This is what the yardmaster will build the train from.

Train 987, departs Potomac Yard at 7:20pm, eastbound to Webster Junction (Chesapeake Yard staging track C03). Power - Mikados #750 and #756

Manifest:
37 piggy back flats

Right now I’m just busy building benchwork:




Sheldon

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Having operated on a lot of layouts, for a lot of years, it is too cumbersome to always use complete switch lists when the trains are big (25-50 cars) and the destinations also sometimes involve blocks of cars.

Like I said earlier, reading car numbers can be a challenge, so I use other descriptors as well.

My goal is the “appearance” and effect of prototype operation, not to get way into the weeds with every little detail of the prototype.

Just like my signaling and CTC are “streamlined”, so is operations.

Sheldon

PS - you asked about reusing the switch list/manifest - so yes a train that returns to the staging can use the same outbound manifest again. Maybe not the next session, but in a later session for variety. They are easily recycled with minor changes.

Sheldon, I wish I lived close by so I could help, not that you need any help.

Regards, Chris

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Thank you for the thought. I do belong to a round robin group here, and a few of the guys will be helping as things progress.

Sheldon

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A train list, aka wheel report or Sheldon’s train manifest is a list of cars in the train. It had initial, number, type of car, weight, load or empty, destination or junction, final destination and consignee, and any special handling needs. Since computers have replaced almost all clerical functions, our lists will show car length, accumulated train length and weight, and number of brakes. In days long gone by, the initial list given to the conductor would be simpler and he would fill in the details, obtaining that information from the waybills. Any work enroute would be written in by the conductor.

Train lists aren’t a switch list, but are used to determine where cars in the train are and where they need to be set out. Train lists have been, and ours still are, listed from the rear of the train to the head end. It was explained that this was due to most work done by trains, pick ups and set outs, is done at the head end.

When I think of switch lists, I think of a track list with less info than a train list used to switch cars in a classification yard. For the old time switch list we have a work order sheet. It shows the train, albeit with much simplified info, with destination, consignee and spotting instructions. It also shows anticipated pulls from customers.

Switch lists of old would’ve been given to the conductor by the agent, or if no on site agent, at the last open communication office before the blind station. It would have info about cars at the station, what track, ready or not for pulling, and/or respotting. It might not have info on cars in the train, the agent might not have much advance knowledge of cars on the train.

Every railroad had it’s own forms and own procedures. If you have a specific railroad, finding their specific forms can give an idea for you.

Jeff

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