Hi, visiting from the HO scale forum with a question. I’ve belonged to a local club for over 20 years, composed mostly of HO scale guys. We do have two fellows who collect Lionel and MTH trains. At our annual train shows they set up an operating display with their gear, and it is a real crowd pleaser, especially with the wee ones who are looking right at the trains goign by.
Recent advances in the smoke producing equipment in O scale have allowed smoke to more or less continuously emit from both steam and diesel engines in large quanities. Nice to look at, but the smoke does bother some of our other members with chronic respiratory problems, especially being in the same hall all day at our show.
I don’t want to debate the problems there might be with the smoke, as I believe it is a sensitive subject with those operating the large scale models.
What I was wondering if those of you who have similar equipment run it with lots of smoke when at home? I’m thinking about a not too large hobby room with perhaps no artificial ventilation. I assume running several locos putting out the type of smoke that I’ve seen they can produce could possibly make the air in the room fairly thick before too long.
So do you operate your smoking engines for long times at home? Any complaints?
We don’t have too many ‘smokers’ - and those we do have generally give off an anemic amount – we usually run with smoke-off just because our basement isn’t particularly well ventilated. I imagine if I knew of one person in the room with respiratory issues, it would be a no-brainer to turn the smoke off.
When I run my MTH Berkshire which is my biggest smoker, I usually run it with the smoke on full blast in a small one car garage with no ventilation. I’m shure it’s not a good idea, because the air does fill with smoke pretty quick, and the smoky air usually envades the house. My dad complains about the smell from the garage sometimes too, but it doesn’t seem to bother him too bad. I guess I would turn it off if someone was negatively effected by the smoke, but I love it personally, and I’m probably addicted to the smell.[^]
A few possibilities come to mind with the smoke situation. First the smell…I used to like the smell of American Flyer smoke. It would come in little brown plastic bottles that you squeezed into the smokestack. But I also like the smell of raw gasoline before they removed the lead…so I guess I am a tad weird. Anyway, you can get scented smoke for 0-Gauge trains. I have the MTH “Christmas scent” and find it pleasing to smell. They have a whole bunch of scented smoke made by MTH and other manufacturers. If you don’t like the smell, you can try a different one [:)]
The dangers…I find it highly doubtful that the smoke coming out of toy train locos is toxic. The lawsuits if it were toxic, especially to kids, would be horrendous. But it’s probably not a good idea to have it so thick that you can’t see your hand in front of you.
To smoke or not to smoke…the neat thing about 0-Gauge locos is you can turn the smoke off or on with ease. Most locos have a little switch on them so that you can select smoking or non-smoking. On the MTH DCS remote control you can even turn the smoke on or off from the remote. So if it gets too smokey, you can switch it off without even stopping the train.
Prolific vs sparse smokers…generally speaking, Lionel postwar was iffy as far as smoke production was concerned. From my experience with S-2 locos, you really had to have that baby zipping around the track at high speed to get it to puff. I will assume that Lionel has improved the smoke abilities with their newer locos that take fluid instead of smoke pills. Can’t say for sure, I haven’t run any Lionel smoking locos yet. [;)]
MTH is famous/notorious for being a heavy smoker. They use fan-assisted smoke and you can fill a room up pretty quickly with the smoke their locos produce. For me, I normally leave the smoke off on diesels. I am a bit paranoid about burning out the smoke unit, which is a possi
The postwar steamers (with no on/off switch) can fill up a closed room with the “white haze” during a relatively short operating session. With a clean, well-serviced smoke unit and a heavy consist load requiring higher voltage to operate at a given (scale) speed. Many of us like you Berk operate in a room or space (attics, basements, garages) that has no natural ventilation (windows and/or powered air exhaust. Or the natural ventilation cannot be employed (too hot or cold outside).
In another thread some of the posters talked about using air purifiers to cut down on dust on their layouts and shared what brands/models they were using. I suspect one of these units would help keep the smoke under control. I’ll have to do a search. Some of these units are pricey. Consumers Reports published an article some time back warning that some of the pricier air purifiers were functionally inferior to some of the cheaper brands.
On the SPF thread, it is fun to see pictures of how much smoke the (more current) powered units in steamers and deisels can produce.
Personally, I have not had folks with allergies respond poorly to the smoke. Have not had any oxygen challenged folks around the trains, so I can’t speak to that. Switching to a scented smoke fluid is something my wife has asked me to do, but I haven’t gotten around to it because I bought too much of the “normal” stuff the last time I ran out and was waiting until either it ran out or I got tossed from the house, whichever came first.
**Deputy…**I find that the fairer sex can be effectively driven out of the train room with the natural old fashioned scent, except for the granddaughter. And then they stay out. There are benefits. [:D]
I only run trains in the winter. I do have a steam engine that I don’t run much, but do enjoy the smoke. I will say, like you. I was at a show a year or so ago and there was a club that had the corner they were in like a casino on a Sat. nite. What ever smoke they had not only hurt to breathe, it really hurt my eyes that I had to walk away. Smoke to a point, fine, just don’t send tons of signals with it.
Jack: The wife and I both have sensitive schnozolas. So I’m not too keen on using smoke that is real stinky…unless I can find some of the old American Flyer stuff. And if I find that you may find me huddled in a corner sniffing it striaght out of the bottle. LOL…don’t know what they put in that stuff, but it sure smelled good. Probably chock full of poisons and carcinogens. [(-D]
My permanent train room has lots of windows, a sliding patio door, and a regular entrance door with a storm/screen door on it. So ventilation is no problem for me. That dust idea sounds pretty cool, though. Dust is a major problem in my part of the country. I am also considering some kind of easily removeable cover for it. But the poor Plasticville folks will gripe when a sheet gets dropped on them and they get clobbered [:D]
I think the Ionic Breeze that they advertise on TV got a pretty bad rating from Consumer Reports. My wife has one she bought from Wallyworld that is very similar and seems to work pretty good. I have a different concern for the train room. There is no heat in there for Winter use. I may have to look at some space heaters and see which one works best. I have a kerosene heater I use for Winter garage work that really cranks out the BTUs, but it burns oxygen and kerosene and I don’t want to be found collapsed on top of my S-2 turbine some morning [:O]
Here’s a quick list I found of MTH smoke scents. May not be all of them, but it’s a pretty good selection:
Christmas scent
Coal scent
Diesel scent
WoodBurning(hickory) scent
Coffee scent
Candy Cane scent
Eggs and Bacon scent
Vanilla scent
Barbeque scent
Pipe Smoke scent
Cinnamon Roll scent
Apple Pie scent
Some of those scents really make me wonder. The food scents would have me drooling while operating the train. Not god if the drool gets in the electronics[:D]. Now if you really want to drive people away and have the ultimate realism at the same time, the Diesel scent should get the job done. Good grief, I don’t know of anyone who likes the stench of diesel!!! [:O]
I’ve personally never minded the smell of straight mineral oil smoke(Lionel), but others in the house disagree.
If I could have my choice, though, I would run smoke pellets in all of my engines. The smoke pellets have a scent that is not overly strong, and not at all unpleasant(at least to me). I don’t get any complaints about the smell of them, either.
As far as scented smoke, I could take it or leave it. I do really the JT’s Mega-Steam scents that I’ve tried, as well as MTH Christmas, however these elicit the same response from other members of the household as doed the straight mineral oil.
For something with virtually no scent, look for a propylene glycol based fluid. Bachmann is the one I’m most familiar with. The only problem is that it doesn’t work nearly as well in a unit designed for pure mineral oil fluid(Lionel, etc). MTH fluid does contain some propylene glycol, however there’s enough mineral oil that this has virtually no effect on the smell. With that in mind, pure propylene glycol would probably give better results in an MTH unit than in a Lionel unit, although I don’t have any MTH units to check.
By the way, I generally only run my newer engines smoke units for a couple of minutes at a time, and at that only with the window open. I can run two or three postwar engines all day without causing a problem.
In this thread, it would be useful to keep in mind that toy train smoke is NOT smoke: the stuff coing out of the stack is not the product of combustion. The oil is vaporized by the heat, and the “smoke” is made from droplets of the oil in the air. That fact may–I don’t know–be important in determining what kind of air filtration to use. A filter made for, say, cigarrette smoke, might not work as well.
MTH also makes a “scentless smoke”. I am like Ben. I normally only run my smoking units a short time before shutting them off.
Palallin:Interesting about what kind of smoke is coming out of the smokestack. That oil-based smoke may not be filtered out by ionic air filters and may also have a negative affect on them if the filtering fins get coated with the oil.
Hmmmm…I would really like to try the coal scent. I have the christmas scented fluid, and it smells okay, kind of a mix between oilly and fresh Christmas tree.
There is a very popular fluid that comes in all kinds of flavors, and though it works very good the scents that are used smell like candle scents. Even the banilla drives my sinus’s crazy. Nose runs eyes water and it is used at a lot of shows. I can ID it from quite a distance. The bland smell of the train mfg.'seems to be ok so I stick with it. So my feeling and only mine is turn it down or off if its a real smoker.
There is a new smoke fluid from Viesmann, 6850 Steam distillate, 100 ml. This is supposed not to leave an oil residue on the locomotive and everything else. Might also be better for respiratory reasons. Never tried it, just read about it yesterday.
Personally I’m out of smoke fluid for my MTH steamer and I miss the smell[:)]
Most toy train smoke fluids are, as mentioned, vaporized mineral oil, which are long chain neutral hydrocarbons. Inhaled in small amounts in liquid form they can be fatal. Drinking it won’t usually cause any harm unless you get some into your trachea/lungs. That’s why they are called non-toxic. It’s a misnomer and only refers to ingestion, not inhalation. The lower doses of aerosols in toy train operation are of unknown safety because no on has ever tested the effects on human lung function. I can say with some confidence, as a physician with some knowledge of lung function, that continued or repeated exposure to concentrated aerosols of foreign substances is generally known to increase the risks of heart disease (heart attack), and make things worse for those with pulmonary disease (asthma, chronic bronchitis, etc.). So my general approach is to never operate trains with smoke around small children or infants, or those with health problems. When I do use toy train smoke, it’s for a few minutes at a time, and with good ventilation.
It’s not difficult to add a smoke on-off switch to postwar locomotives.
Some of the modern scents are quite compelling. Those that have a holiday scent can be quite “Christmasy;” those that smell like the original Lionel pellets can bring back wonderful childhood memories; and others just smell better than unscented ones. One of the most evocative is the coffee aroma when used in a diner or caboose. Etc, etc.
That said, everyone ought to study carefully what Dr. Blum has written above. Two members of my family have serious lung disorders; several more have asthma, chronic sinusitis and/or allergies. That’s why I installed the “off” switches. I very seldom run any smoke.
Some folks will pooh-pooh this, but one may be doing irreversible damage without knowing it. By the time breathing problems show up, it is often too late to do anything about them.
Given all the concern about air-pollution, the effects of which tend to be cumulative, one wonders why anyone would deliberately introduce additional foreign matter into his lungs. After all, that’s what automobiles and power companies are for…
Indoor pollution may trump outdoor pollution as one primary cause for the gradual but unrelenting spike in allergies and respiratory ailments, in both the young and the old. How else do you explain the increase in allergies and respiratory ailments (like asthma) in the past 60 years?
We’ve swapped one lifestyle that had us (and kids) outdoors far more and the windows open on the house to a lifestyle where we are bottled up in a house or office (air conditioned) and now pursue most of our entertainment indoors.
I think the facts support that the outdoor air quality is better now than it was in 1950. Indoors, not necessarily. There is a lot to be said for seeking a powered ventilation solution where the air is not simple filtered but actually evacuated and replaced with fresh. Or moderation with the train smoke.
I think we need to take a step back and not immediately dive off the deep end. Mineral oil is not some kind of highly toxic chemical like gasoline or naptha. As a matter of fact, mineral oil is also known as baby oil. Most likely mineral oil/baby oil was rubbed on everyone’s butt including Doctor Blum’s when he was a baby to prevent and cure diaper rash.
It has a whole host of uses including being taken internally as a laxative and as baby lotions, cold creams, ointments, and even in candies.
As to the alleged danger of breathing the smoke vapors of toy trains…we have no confirmation or proof from the FDA or any other agency that this danger exists. Not even a complaint from anyone of this situation, other than some folks who are sensitive to all forms of smoke and scents. Nobody has been rushed to the hospital for inhaling toy train smoke, even when they inhale large amounts of it at train shows. Unless and until a scientific study using scientific methods is used to study toy train smoke, I am not going to go into panic mode and shut off smoke on my locos. While it’s common sense to not run smoke or any other type of airborne agent around people with lung disease or allergies, I am not going to jump on the panic bandwagon based only on opinion and theory. A prime example of this over reaction is margerine, butter and eggs. How many times has the scientific community flip-flopped their opinions on the safety and dangers of these items?? Sometimes it was happening every week!
The simple answer is if you have a concern about the smoke, crack a window or door or get some kind of air purifier.