Solar powered high speed trains

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

Here’s my question. Since it appears that most high speed passenger trains are electric and since they almost always have overhead power wires (catenary?), why not install solar panels on the structure over the length of the RR line to assist in power generation? I recognize that all of the power cannot be generated that way but for a line clear across America, there would be sunshine somewhere almost all the time.

I did mention this once at a theater and the fellow next row up suggested that vibration would be an issue but I presume that is why design engineers exist, to fix problems like that.

I’m interested in people’s thoughts on this.

Thanks

2

Big $$$ to install that many solar panels would make the project cost millions with little benefit.

3

…I believe the ability of solar panels to collect power from sunshine is not in the range of being cost effective to power output for a project as mentioned. Just my [2c]

4

Not to mention the problems there would be with theft and vandalism. And to transfer power the long distances from where it is sunny to where it is not would diminish the voltage (the same reason trains haul coal to electric power plants instead of utilities generating power at the mine). Plus there is the whole night issue, plus in winter when snow would cover the panels, plus the available light is greatly reduced in both time and angle…

A good idea gnry fan, but the technology isn’t there yet.

5

I usually answer this question related to wind power, but the analogy is still the same.

One NYCT subway car draws 600 volts and has 600 amp fuses = 360,000 watts.

One NYCT subway train has 10 cars (360,000 x 10) = 3.6 MEGAWATS

One normal wind tower produces 1.5 MW.

There are 420 subway train in rush hour service = (about) 840 wind towers.

This does not include LIRR, MNCR, NJT and AMTK.

Out here in North Dakota we have about two wind towers per square mile (in places where we have wind towers., and New York City only has 306 square miles, which btw seem to be used for other things.

As for solar power, the City Bank building was built in the early 60s, it has an unique roof line to accommodate solar panels, but in the 50 years since then, this design has never been repeated. LION thinks that there must be a reason for this.And, zoning laws in NYC require a majority of the sunshine to land on the ground where the people are, and so buildings are intentionally shaped so as to not collect too much sunshine.

The new train shed at Coney Island does have solar panels on its roof, but what return they get from it is unknown to me.

Look at all of the solar race cars that the various university students try to build and race. Trains do want to carry more than one passenger, or so I am told.

DISCLAIMER

LION is aware that he cheated on his numbers, since a subway car only draws 300 amps. But then that is the traction motor circuit. There is yet another 100 amp fuse for hotel power. And him did not include all of the other power that the system requires, so LION will stand by his number for wind towers. And yes, him also knows that trains are not always drawing power, but the point is the vast quantities of power that this nation uses really has no viable substitute.

ROAR

6

In a decent location (reasonably sunny most of the year), solar panels might produce enough electricity to be cost-effective over the usually cited 'return on investment" (which is a huge amount) period of 15 to 50 years.

However, note that the sunpower falling on each square yard or square meter is fairly low - around 1.3 kilowatts per square meter even at high noon at the equator, if I recall correctly, and less anyplace else, especially further north. Also, the conversion efficiency of present-technology panels is fairly low - only 10 to 20 % at max. - so the actual power produced form each one is really small.

If there are solar panels on nearby houses and commercial buildings, that would be an indication that a solar kilowatt-hour is cost-comparable to one from the electric company.* However, note that condition applies only at that location, and without a lot of electrical infrastructure to aggregate the current flows and step-up voltage for transmission, etc. as noted above.

(*But the railroad can likely buy electricity in bulk from the power co. for much less than the retail price that most houses amd small businesses pay, so that too will cut into most of solar’s long-term potential cost savings.)

The real killer is that most solar panels are mounted on either pre-existing structures - typically roofs, the costs of which are mostly not charged or allocated to the solar panels - or a simple and inexpensive ground-mount rack or pole. None of those are part of a catenary system, at least not enough to be able to support and retain a large array of solar panels in high winds, snow and ice loads, etc. Having to add all that additional structural framing or cable supports - which is not otherwise needed - and inspect and maintain, it, etc. would add too much cost for solar to be competitive.

  • Paul North.
7

There were somewhat serious proposals for a solar powered steam locomotives. A set of mirrors would be used to create steam that would then be pumped into a fireless steam locomotive. The idea had considerable merit in the developing world where:

  1. It is usually hot and sunny

  2. Once the solar equipment is paid for, the operating costs would be very small.

  3. Buying parts for diesel engines and the associated electrical components consumes foreign exchange.

  4. Running gear and cylinders on steam locomotives are easy to repair. Once the firebox and boiler combination is removed, the locomotive’s maintenance becomes simple.

Has anyone else heard anything about this idea?

Kevin

8

Fireless cookers have long used steam generated for other purposes (heat, sawmills, generators), so as a concept it’s entirely possible. There are solar powered boilers on the market, although I’m sure they’re pricey. In addition, you still need something to control the mirrors.

You still face the usual solar limitations, ie, no sun, no power.

9

Do a search on Google using the search term Solar Train, and several interesting items come up, including a several-mile-long “tunnel” with solar panels over the electrified line in Belgium, and a project in Italy that put solar cells on older rail cars to provide hotel power in lieu of HEP.

10

Did anyone see this Title and suddenly think of The Simpsons Monorail episode?

11

Would solve that pesky “working at night” dilemma.

12

After reading this thread, I was amused to see this article today:

http://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/chinas-public-railways-may-soon-powered-solar-energy/853834/

China’s public railways may soon be powered by solar energy

Chinese companies come together for new solar energy project

Three Chinese companies have come together to help bolster the country’s public railway infrastructure with solar energy. Ascent Solar Technologies, a developer of high-tech and flexible photovoltaic solar technologies, has partnered with Shenzhen Radiant Enterprise and the Third Railway Survey and Design Institute Group Corporation of China. Together, the three companies will work on incorporating solar energy into the country’s railway system, hoping that renewable fuel will help cut the country’s energy costs and encourage economic growth.

The clip above is just the first paragraph. Click the link above for the full article.

13

There really IS a way to provide sufficient electricity from `solar’ power…

Solar power is the result of hydrogen fusion.

All we have to do is clean up and scale up the laboratory fusion reactors into something that can put out power on the order of Hoover Dam when Lake Mead is full. Of course, various entities have been working on this ever since the first H-bomb went BANG…

As for `conventional’ solar cells, here in sunny Southern Nevada we have both sun and empty space. I wonder how many acres of solar collectors would be needed to power one train on the LA&SL route. Somehow, I don’t see UP rushing off an order…

Chuck

14

There is such a cloud over passenger rail service in this country that solar energy has no chance!

And, oh, fireliess cookers were real. The steam was generated and pumped into the locomotive and stored until used. The general universal arguement was whether or not the unit generated its own power because, theoretically, the temperature of the steam was sufficient to boil condensation and turn it back into steam…a round robin with no real conclusion. Severeal mines and industries used the fireless cookers…Peerless seems like a name of a manufacturer. Wanamee iron mill near Wilkes Barre, PA was noted for its locos.

15

Most, if not all of the solar panels you see going on buildings is due to the huge (in excess of 30%) taxpayer funded federal subsidies either the building owner or panel installer/owner is getting. These things are so inefficient, they would not exist without forced taxpayer assistance. Same with the current wind farm debacle. I’ve been told by a number of people in the wind turbine and solar panel fields that when the federal pork disappears, so will these projects. They simply can not stand alone and cover the long term costs.