Great forum here and I hope to become an active participant in the near future. About 15 years ago, my father and I set out to build this Atlas 4x8 layout in my parents attic. http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10033.htm
I was around 16 and the time. We succesfully cut out the entire cookie cutter form, got to the point of laying down the cork roadbed and track, and even had a few test trains running. For whatever reason, we stopped at that point and never completed the thing. Maybe it was the freezing cold winters and boiling hot summers in that uninsulated attic. Or it may have been the frustration we felt as our trains kept getting derailed and couldn’t seem to make it around some of the turns. Also, some of the track just didn’t seem to fit right on the board.
That was then, and now I am 31 and have a son of my own. Too young to help me revive the project, but definately old enough to adore trains. Guess he takes after his father and grandfather.
I have it in my head that I want to restart and finally finish this project, but I have a few questions for the group. If you’ve made it this far in this post, I’m sure you’ll be happy to help!
I can’t decide if I should just rip up all the track and roadbed and start from scratch with track laying part. The plans call for all sectional track, but when we started having problems, someone recomended flex-track to us. Is it worth it to scrap all the track we have and build the whole thing with flextrack? I think the few parts we replaced with flextrack were the sectoins with the radii that were too small. Is sectional track decently reliable? W
Great forum here and I hope to become an active participant in the near future. About 15 years ago, my father and I set out to build this Atlas 4x8 layout in my parents attic. http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10033.htm
I was around 16 and the time. We succesfully cut out the entire cookie cutter form, got to the point of laying down the cork roadbed and track, and even had a few test trains running. For whatever reason, we stopped at that point and never completed the thing. Maybe it was the freezing cold winters and boiling hot summers in that uninsulated attic. Or it may have been the frustration we felt as our trains kept getting derailed and couldn’t seem to make it around some of the turns. Also, some of the track just didn’t seem to fit right on the board.
That was then, and now I am 31 and have a son of my own. Too young to help me revive the project, but definately old enough to adore trains. Guess he takes after his father and grandfather.
I have it in my head that I want to restart and finally finish this project, but I have a few questions for the group. If you’ve made it this far in this post, I’m sure you’ll be happy to help!
I can’t decide if I should just rip up all the track and roadbed and start from scratch with track laying part. The plans call for all sectional track, but when we started having problems, someone recomended flex-track to us. Is it worth it to scrap all the track we have and build the whole thing with flextrack? I think the few parts we replaced with flextrack were the sectoins with the radii that were too small. Is sectional track decently reliable? Would soldering help with derailments?
Is the right way to do this, to lay the track bed directly onto the plyw
I’ll second Lou’s suggestions. Nickel-Silver flextrack and turnouts (switches, if you prefer) would be the way to go. If the cork roadbed is still in good shape, I’d leave it and just replace the track…that way you’ll have the centerlines already in place to make laying the flextrack easier.
DCC would be the way to go…I’d recommend either the Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Powercab for a layout this size.
I’m going to have to be a bit blunt here and disagree with the above posters. If you’re having trouble laying sectional (snap) track, you’re going to have more trouble laying flex track, mainly because it requires cutting at least one rail. Rail joints, be they conductive or insulated, flex or sectional track, need to be smooth and either straight or a constant curve. The first answer touched on this subject when he noted your first picture shows what he called a mismatched joint. The joint between the end of the bridge and the switch is skewed, meaning that the one rail joint is not pushed together properly. You cannot fudge a joint or track alignment by not pushing the track together completely on both rails, or you’ll have the problems that you’re describing with derailments. The layout you’ve shown in the diagram and pictures is a bit complex for a beginner, and this is probably contributing to your problems.
Since you’re a beginner, there are some great on-line resources for beginners. The best I’ve found is on the NMRA’s site (National Model Railroad Association):
Check for problems like this, and make sure that both rails have gone into the railjoiner. This is a common pair of errors when most of us start out. Even if you have brass rail type track, relay the layout using what you have to see if you can get smooth joints and eliminate these problems (brass just needs to be cleaned more often). Since the track is old, go to the hobby shop and buy a couple packs of metal railjoiners and one pack of plastic railjoiners. Replace all of these when you relay the track.
Another problem can be your vertical curves (transition from a level secton to an up or down grade). They need to be a curve, not an angle and definately avoid putting these on a switch. It’s hard to tell with t
Im also going to state that your environment may not be very welcoming for train running. You already stated one reason for stopping. Boiling Hot and Freezing cold.
If you dont want to spend any more than a few minutes in a train room, why bother pouring resources into something that will run you a few hundred to a few thousand of dollars and hardly used due to discomfort?
The hobby has undergone several generations of improvements and change. Our problem was brass rail and plastic frog switches. Once those went away and were nickel silver and good quality switches we were able to move on.
I see those pictures are very nice. But I bet you that heat and cold will heave that track and you will derail often.
You probably have the benefit of experience from childhood with Father building something like this, that will guide your future efforts.
I have always liked this layout. However, it is one I’ve never built.
Sounds like a plan, especially looking at the pictures it is fairly far along.
No, only carefullly take out and fix the sections with problems. As a prior poster noted, if you are having trouble laying sectional track then flex track will probably be harder to deal with. The only time I would recommend flex track in this instance is where the sectional is not fitting right. There are several places where the Altas plans just don’t quite work right and the “fudge factor” has to be applied just right to get them to work.
Huh? A sectional track is a fixed radius and cannot be too small. Usually it is the other way around. Flex track allows one to make curves that are way too tight. But as I recall this plan, as designed the Wye on the top was made with 15" curves. That is because this was intented to be the end of a “branch” to a mine and only short locomotives and cars are supposed to go up there. That monster 50’ mechanical reefer car (the orange santa fe) shown in the photo’s should never be on that part of the layout.
If you can get the old track up without damaging the cork roadbed, (if that is what you used under the track origionally) and go with that, with new Nickle Silver Flex track on top. Just replace any cork roadbed that is damaged and sand the whole roadbed so that it is level and smooth before you lay track on it. If you did not use cork roadbed, I would put that down first and sand it smooth. I would go with DCC if I were starting out now as it is much easier to wire, (you do not need all the block switches to isolate sections of track to stop a train and leave it). With DCC, the track is powered all the time and you just start up the engine that you want to use. Do NOT throw away your old Power Pack as you can still use it on DCC to power your switch machine motors and any building or street lights that you may install. Just DO NOT have it connected to the track.
There are several ways to secure the track to the roadbed. Just use the Search Feature on these Forums for track laying and find the one that suits you. (Latex Caulk, like you seal around windows with is quite popular.) Just spread it very thin with a Palette knife and secure your roadbed and track and weight it down for several hours.
The main thing to remember is to take your time and enjoy yourself. Make sure that your track turns are smooth and not too tight a radius and that you have NO KINKS, in particular where you are joining sections of track or switches together. One other thing is to secure your switches with only a few dabs of whatever glue you are using, AND NONE NEAR ANY MOVING PARTS OF THE SWITCH. Don’t ask how many switches I ruined b
Ahem. Unlike the other posters in this thread, I personally have built and completed this exact layout. I will try to get you pictures of it completed later tonight. I used sectional track only because that is the way it was designed. It worked just fine.
The only design flaw of this layout is the transition in track height within a 4x8 because you are going under and over. It’s really rather small for that, and the cars tend to roller coaster around the layout if they become un coupled.
I got bored with it rather quickly and soon dismantled it and buried it in my brother and laws back yard. I quickly started on a 16X13 around the room layout which was much more to my liking. But the kids will have a great time with it. You however like me will get bored with it quickly I’m sure [:)]
This is a bit of a tough call. I see valuable information and advice from all the posters here, but I would be inclined to say start over…including with a whole nuther approach.
Let’s start with the available space, not the least of which is…does it still have to be in the attic? Is the attic a substantially different place from 15 years ago? If not, why should we expect that its limitations then won’t be as intrusive into your enjoyment now as it was for you and your dad? Where is the progress or forward motion in this for you? What lessons would you like your own child to take from your analysis of what didn’t go so well last time when you explain any replications or alterations to what came previously? Hopefully it would include something about the attic.
I agree with Frank, about the boring aspect of this particular layout plan, and at the same time with the caution about tackling something overly complex or large from Tom.
Some of us never get to laying flextrack because it seems daunting, or our first attempts defy us. I made myself get on with it, and although I can’t claim to be an “expert”, I can lay basically trouble-free track at last. You make some boo-boos, learn by observation and trials, waste a length or three, and then become rather quick and proficient by the time your 10th section is getting soldered into place. The variety it allows is what makes it marvelous and so useful for developing a unique track plan.
But, to get back to your space, I would try to re-configure your bench or layout surface so that you get more useful room that allows more prototypical operations. We don’t want you running 6 hour ops sessions with your young boy…that would probably be silly, but it might be nice for the two of you to be able to run a decent 20-30 minute session with some switching in a rudimentary yard, running out
Just my opinion, but flextrack won’t necessarily fix your derailment problems. First, find out what’s causing the derailments. If it’s alighment problems, I would use a piece of flextrack here and there rather than starting all over.
On the other hand, if you just don’t like the track plan, by all means start over.
My opinion of this layout is that Atlas was trying to sell as much track as they thought anyone could possibly cram into a limited space, and it should have only half as much track as it does. Grades would be too steep for a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in HO scale, and the boxcar you’re trying to run on this layout is too long for the time the layout was designed. Forty foot boxcars would be the longest that you should be trying to use on these tight radius curves. I think you should chuck this one into the dumpster and start afresh with a more practical, single level track plan that avoids the inclines and sharp radiuses that this plan requires.
quote: My opinion of this layout is that Atlas was trying to sell as much track as they thought anyone could possibly cram into a limited space, and it should have only half as much track as it does. Grades would be too steep for a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in HO scale, and the boxcar you’re trying to run on this layout is too long for the time the layout was designed. Forty foot boxcars would be the longest that you should be trying to use on these tight radius curves. I think you should chuck this one into the dumpster and start afresh with a more practical, single level track plan that avoids the inclines and sharp radiuses that this plan requires. unquote
I’m glad this is a personal hobby, and different opinions are allowed.
For an HO 4x8 - and I’m not saying a 4x8 is perfect, far from it - it’s one of the better track plans that I have studied. Since I’m limited to 4x7 for the main portion of my layout, it won’t work for me. But the plan has figure 8 operation instead of a race track, 2 short passing tracks, and does feature a branch line for switching. That said, small locomotives, unrealistically short trains, and short cars are forced upon the builder of this layout by the sharp curves and steep grades. And the curves and grades make this a more difficult plan to build good trackwork for then less complex plans.
Issues to consider for your decisions:
what condition is the benchwork in? Is there any evidence of sagging anywhere, or of any fastenings letting go? Sagging because of inadequate construction - quite common in 1st layouts - or other benchwork problems should be cause to reject the re-building effort. Benchwork that is not perfectly rigid under the loads experienced (people leaning on it, etc) is going to cause track issues and resulting derailments no matter what. Similarly, the humidity swings likely to happen in your attic could by themselves cause the benchwork to shift and cause the track/derailment problems. The real solution is to put the lay
Thanks everyone for the truly great responses and opinions.
The people who were writing about the bad climate, etc in that attic - you’re totally right. I need to find a better place to move this project to. I’m hoping that I can work on the project here, and then in the near future, when I buy a house, I will have enough room to move it to my place. For now I may have to contend with the cold winters and hot summers.
About flex vs sectional - I’m thinking that maybe for financial reasons alone, it’s worth giving the sectional another shot before buying all new track.
About DCC vs DC - I still don’t know what to do. I have to do some more reading and research because my understanding of DCC is still very limmited. But I’m a computer engineer, so I imagine I should be able to figure it out!
About the layout itself, and its 4x8ishness - 4x8 used to seem huge to me. But after reading a lot on here I definatley see the limitations. I guess one of the reasons I’m inclined to stick with this layout for now, is that I think the cookie cutter and elevational aspect is so interesting. I’m proud of how we made that and I would just feel terrible about scrapping it. I’m hoping that one day in the future, if I have more space, I could maybe build an extension to this layout and connect the whole thing together. Is this realistic?
Driline - thanks so much for posting your pics. It’s great to see someone’s ressults who did the same thing as us. Any other tips you could share about the layout would be much appreciated. Do you have any pics of the wiring or controls?
After I post this initial reply, I’m going to go back and read everyone’s responses one or two more times. A lot to digest here.
This trackplan (Plywood Summit Lines) is ideal for small steam and / or diesel switchers. I lean towards the steam side, if a 4 x 8 is what you are going to build, this is an ideal plan for Bachmann Shays or Rivarossi Heislers, with small cars (MDC chip cars, shorty flat cars, logging cars etc) 2 mines up on the hill (wye), one of the yard tracks the interchange, the other for passengers/ mill workers, and the lower siding having a sawmill to supply wood to the mine/town. I have too built this plan, but unlike Driline, my couplers operate correctly, my track was laid properly,and have spent several hours in an evening “operating” this railroad without the issues he experienced. Contrary to some of the layout plans (loops with a duckunder) I see posted as a better alternative, I personally don’t see more activities in those layouts than I do this one. (such as that Heart of Georgia layout) The sides are very narrow, and don’t seem to me to photograph well, MHO. My geared steam is also chugging along at 5 mph, vs 45 mph on those big diesels.
As far as DC or DCC goes, I personally chose DCC and would never go back. Some of the engines I have mentioned earlier can be purchased already setup with DCC and sound. The track wiring couldn’t be any easier (no block wiring) just hook up 2 wires in several different places all around the layout.
Sorry Driline but the only problem you mentioned had to do with couplers, you stated you got bored very easily with the plan, but didn’t go into detail. That can be understandable in certain situations, I see you like bigger diesels, which I don’t see working at all on this plan.
H, I sent you a PM with a link included. Maybe its a better example of your railroad than the others shown here, I believe repairing / replacing the trackwork is a good idea. Get your feet wet, and if do
Having followed this thread, I respectfully submit the following.
Personally, assuming the benchwork is in good condition, I would suggest leaving any track that functions properly as it is. Carefully take up only the sections that are problematic, and re-lay those sections as perfectly as you can. Don’t be afraid to take up an entire curve if need be to get everything properly lined up again. Your goal is perfectly smooth, flowing trackwork, no kinks or bumps anywhere. Replace damaged track as necessary. Bumps in the roadbed (cork, if used) or subroadbed (plywood) should be sanded smooth. Next, get an NMRA guage and check the wheels, track, turnouts, everthing with it. Make adjustments as necessary. Also, check cars for proper weight (do a forum search, I’m trying to keep this from getting overly long winded), add if necessary. Cars with truck mounted couplers tend to be a bit light, and derail if backed up, you can switch these to body mounted couplers if you want. I assume you still have your powerpack shown in one of the pictures, for now I suggest simply using it, most factory DCC equipped locomotives will run just fine on it. Speaking of locomotives, shorter is better, within reason. As tempting as Big Boys and DD40’s are, they simply are just out of place on such a small layout. My Bachmann Spectrum 2-10-2 doesn’t care for one of my 22" radius curves. I also agree the 50’ cars are simply a bit much for a small layout, I would recommend 40’ or shorter cars.
Anyway, this should give you something to think about.
These features allow the plan to be operated as a busy single line main (two passing sidings = two trains). The trains can either be facing or overtaking. The branch line to a mine on the top of the hill allows this layout to be operated from the yard to the mine as a point to point. Turntable at the one end an a wye at the other.
I think I would make fewer loco storage tracks off the turn table and try to make the yard with one more track.
To me a few 34’ hoppers or 21’ ore cars are essential to serve the mine. One train runs these cars up and down from the mine (something like an 0-6-0 switcher or an Alco S2, or even geared locomotives). Don’t forget a bobber caboose or 30’ shorty caboose. Maybe add an Overland type shorty combine passenger car or a coach even for the workers commuting to the mine each morning & night. In fact run the “commuter” train separate instead of doing a mixed train…
Other trains running on the main pick up the hopper/ore cars and haul them away to all places off-layout.
One can really have a jam packed operating session on this little mine servicing layout.
This trackplan (Plywood Summit Lines) is ideal for small steam and / or diesel switchers. I lean towards the steam side, if a 4 x 8 is what you are going to build, this is an ideal plan for Bachmann Shays or Rivarossi Heislers, with small cars (MDC chip cars, shorty flat cars, logging cars etc) 2 mines up on the hill (wye), one of the yard tracks the interchange, the other for passengers/ mill workers, and the lower siding having a sawmill to supply wood to the mine/town. I have too built this plan, but unlike Driline, my couplers operate correctly, my track was laid properly,and have spent several hours in an evening “operating” this railroad without the issues he experienced. Contrary to some of the layout plans (loops with a duckunder) I see posted as a better alternative, I personally don’t see more activities in those layouts than I do this one. (such as that Heart of Georgia layout) The sides are very narrow, and don’t seem to me to photograph well, MHO. My geared steam is also chugging along at 5 mph, vs 45 mph on those big diesels.
As far as DC or DCC goes, I personally chose DCC and would never go back. Some of the engines I have mentioned earlier can be purchased already setup with DCC and sound. The track wiring couldn’t be any easier (no block wiring) just hook up 2 wires in several different places all around the layout.
Sorry Driline but the only problem you mentioned had to do with couplers, you stated you got bored very easily with the plan, but didn’t go into detail. That can be understandable in certain situations, I see you like bigger diesels, which I don’t see working at all on this plan.
H, I sent you a PM with a link included. Maybe its a better example of your railroad than the others shown here, I believe repairing / replacing the trackwork is a good idea. Get your feet wet, and if down the road, you find room for
You turn the throttle and apply power to the track. The analog motor on a locomotive feels this power and starts to turn the motor and off we go!
Any and ALL engines (As in at least one or more) on that track connected to your throttle will roll at the same time. This is why need gaps, toggles and such to control the entire layout so that perhaps the mainline engine will roll the train while the turntable engine stays dead.
Now DCC power.
The track is LIVE all the time once powered up. There is a locomotive equipped with a decoder. That locomotive has a name that it will answer to… maybe address number 03.
3 in Binary is 00000011 (Out of 255 I think I have it)
Now suppose you have just one throttle in DCC and a bunch of locos sitting on that track. Each of the locos have a different address… perhaps the cab numbers last two digits.
The track is still powered. But the decoder in each of the engines DONT respond except the engine address number 3 when you open the throttle to drive that engine.
The decoder hears it’s address, the command to spin motor and provides that power to the motor and off you go. There is a hell of alot more going on in binary form off that track to the locomotive.
You can go into the turntable with a DCC engine, take a spin while someone else takes the local out onto the mainline with another DCC engine going in a totally different direction and speed.
The voltage is necessary to be constant to the track to keep the DCC decoders “Booted up” all the time. If you shut the track down the DCC engine shuts off and needs to be rebooted just like a computer.
At the end of the day, DCC is pretty expensive. The DCC system, engine is already almost a thousand dollars. Anal
Last Chance, I think you have one aspect of DC/DCC mixing incorrect. If you apply DCC current when a DC engine is present, it does not march off. It will sing and make ungodly noises due to the pulsing of the voltage in the DCC current/signal interface. but it won’t move until you introduce a speed step into your throttle settings. This has been my experience. The whole point of having an address 00 decidated to DC engines on some DCC systems is that you have to be able to control those engines.
