Some thoughts on pre ordering in the MRRing world

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

This thought occurred to me moments ago and begged the question why had I not pondered it sooner.

In the model railroading world a pre order is free there is no upfront money, whereas in the video gaming world a pre order requires money up front.

If I had the chance to put money up front on some stuff I had pre ordered but cancelled due to complete lack of hours at my PoE, I may still have been able to get it if I had put money down up front.

Before there’s a mass backlash to this thread atleast allow me to say that putting money down up front could be offered as an option for pre ordering model train stuff. Like say the upcoming F3’s made by IM that I really wanted. they came in two tone green and would’ve been perfect on point of my Centralian set.

Another thing that would work is placing a small amount and paying it off as the release date nears, (Gaming companies do this).

2

Gidday Gary, I’m just thinking out loud so don’t take anything I say too seriously!!! and besides my thoughts are in no particular order.

Can video gaming and model railroading be compared when it comes to numbers of participants? With no basis of fact I would think that model railroaders would be a very small drop in the ocean of gamers. Does the disparity of numbers actually have any relevance in this discussion??

A deposit up front would be a good idea, far too many people are all keen at demanding that X is a must have item yet when if they have to put their money where their mouth is , they are suddenly missing in action. Strange that eh !!

What we model railroaders tend to forget is that a lot of the model railroad manufacturers are not large multi national corporations but fellow enthusiasts with the good ideas and desire to share them and perhaps make a few dollars on the side (?) and while complaints regarding dishonoured arrangements are thankfully very few and far between, I’m afraid I work far too hard to let my money possibly disappear into someones pockets.

Self discipline, perhaps an old fashioned concept but over the years if I’ve wanted an item badly enough I’ve put money aside, in the bank, and forgotten about it until I’ve got the purchase price, then Bingo!! Getting a Wife, kids and a mortgage tend to change priorities so at times that money put aside has become unforgotten. [sigh]

To be fair I personally don’t like the concept of pre-ordering, but understand why it happens, and so consider myself very lucky that I’m not hanging out on someone offering to perhaps manufacture the AlcoEMD GP109-262 Phase 190 in the autumn 1912 Union Burlington freight colour scheme, (with out the Mars light.)

Cheers, the Bear. [:D]

&n

3

This thread, like many many others like it will most likely be locked sooner than later as a flame war topic.

There is something in the business world called ‘JIT,’ standing for “just in time” in the manufacturing and business Sector. It means supplies/products, etc. Come “just at the right time they are wanted or need”. Why? you ask? because space, stockpiling and warehousing supplies/parts/products COSTS money! So delivery will be “JIT”.

The other business tactic is the “preorder” suppliers to make sure the ‘JIT’ is “perfect”, with no more, no less than needed.This is supposed to guarantee a “sell out” and have none or few left over on the shelves anywhere.It also "guarantees’ The manufacturer can produce enough for ther profits to happen. If not enouhg pre-orders,then not produced.

Here is the main reason you will get a backlash:

The problems early on in the MRRing field was that suppliers/LHS’s/online etailers were requiring a full paid upfront or partial downpayment on Per-orders, and often the manufacturer would either shove off production so far into the future, or NOT produce the item at all. This meant retailers had to refund money they most likely had already SPENT and did not have then to refund, so ALL PRE-ORDER payments stoppped. Now payments SHOULD be charged/paid ONLY when the item is delivered or ships.

I pre-ordered ONCE, and will NEVER AGAIN… I didn’t have to pay up front, but ordered about a year in advance of it’s intended delivery date. It Came in about 2 months late, and when they called me about them, to say they were in, My financial picuture had changed drastically</

4

Let’s let business 101 be business 101 and use common sense instead.

With the QC problems some manufacturers are having I would think long and hard about plunking down some hard cash for a unseen model.

At least when I buy a engine on line I’ve already read reviews and watch videos on you tube and have a general idea of what I’m buying or I will find out why the engine is to be avoid.

5

I have no idea what I will want to buy six months from now.

I don’t pre-order.

If that means a company doesn’t want me as a customer that is their decision and I can live with it.

6

I have experience in the retail business, buying and selling… nationally. The company, big or small, that does the best job of keeping inventories low and turnover high is the winner provided they make sound business decisions in other areas also. I don’t know what type financial arrangements most mrr companies have to make with the actual manufacturer, how much money they have to put up front. Depends on how well they can negotiate a contract and what their past record is on orders/payments etc… I suppose.

Could it be, with the advent of the internet, selling has gotten so competitive and actual profit margins so low that ‘manufacturers’ have no choice other than going to the pre-order business model?

As far as games go, I think I read somewhere that the video gaming industry makes more money annually that the Hollywood movie industry. The following quote is from the Seeking Alpha website…

"The one-day record holder for a movie premiere is Spiderman 3, which brought in $59 million in ticket sales on its opening day.

Spring’s opening blockbuster brought in $500 million in sales. It was the biggest entertainment opening ever. But it wasn’t a movie…

Grand Theft Auto IV, a video game, recorded sales of $310 million… on its first day."

That is a chunk o’ change.

7

I don’t pre-order because, like a couple posters above have already mentioned, I want to see, feel, touch, and more importantly READ about the item before I drop hard earned (and scarce) money down on the item. If it means I miss out on the item because to few were produced and those that were had already been spoken for via pre-order or whatever…oh well, such is life. I have read too many stories/posts where people have dropped a chunk of coin down on an unseen/unreviewed/untested product only to be disappointed…and slightly less wealthy [2c]. Hey, each to their own and if pre-ordering is your bag then have at it and enjoy. It’s just not for me personally.

Happy modeling!

Don.

8

Well, it is, after all, just a hobby – and I’m not going to suffer any pain if an item is never available for me because I didn’t pre-order it.

9

There is a pain killer called on line stores that orders enough for store stock and of course e-bay and the local use market…

After reading reviews and watching videos of the new engine you can make a wiser decision on buying or if you should avoid the engine.

10

Common sense is often flawed and built on bad data. There’s a reason Business 101 exists.

For example, I’m in the space business. Common sense would tell you that you should mass produce (or at least order more than two) probes, rovers, and what have you to take advantage of economies of scale. But, in practice, that fails because the demands of every mission are so unique that you have to build from scratch almost every time. Common sense says “build a Mars rover just like the one you just built, it’ll be cheaper, but put life detection sensors on it!” Real Engineering says “You’ve changed the mass, center of gravity, and power demands. Swapping in a $250,000 sensor is going to cost us $9 million. And it still might not work.”

11

In before the lock!! [(-D]

Anyway, there is NO comparison between model railroading and video games. Pre-ordering a video game ensures you’ll receive a copy when released, not left standing in line if sold out. Pre-ordering in the model railroading world is for manufacturer’s to see if the demand is there to even make the product.

I have only pre-ordered one item. It is the Athearn SD70Ace NS Heritage in the Penn Central paint scheme (DCC with sound). I was hesitant because of the price and estimated delivery date. But since I WANTED one and didn’t want to take a chance on them being sold out or getting bilked by other sellers, I pre-ordered. The delivery date has been moved up (from Feb 2014 to Oct 2013) and since they have been displayed on Athearn’s web site, youtube channel and the National Train Show, I am EXTREMELY EXCITED about it.

I am not entirely enthused about pre-orders and would not be happy if the company went out of business before delivery or changed their mind and would have to fight to get a refund. Athearn is a large company and the chance of this happening was slim. When I pre-ordered, the final price was actually lower than advertised.

12

What’s that got to do with buying model trains?

The modern age bean counters has ruin a lot of things and some came up with terrible ideas such as requiring a deposit.Thankfully calmer heads with common sense prevailed in all but a few instances and no deposit is required…

Common sense in purchasing models today requires modelers look before commenting dollars and Business 101 isn’t needed for that…

Far too many models today suffers defaults from wrong details to shoddy workmanship.

13

LION thinks that in many cases “pre-ordering” is nothing more than a poll to see what interest is out there. Once they get enough pre-orders they will design the molds and order the products to be made. If they do not get so many pre-orders they will quietly shelf the idea.

ROAR

14

I have pre-ordered twice and paid in full at the pre-order.

In both cases it was for small run items that the importer was selling direct only, so I was fairly sure they would not be discounted after delivery (in both cases they have not been).

In both cases I got a significant discount.

In both cases I had high trust for the importer.

In both cases I really wanted the item and did not expect to see anything similar later on. In one case I have been correct, in the other a similar product was offered, but for a different prototype at roughly the same price, so I still preferred what I got.

I have a short of list of items in S scale (less than 10) that I will pre-order if they are ever offered - all motive power which I doubt I will ever have the time to scratchbuild. Otherwise I wait until it comes out.

In a perfect world, everything I want is sitting on the shelves at my LHS at what I think (and the dealer thinks) is a fair price. Until then we all have go with what is available and seems best for us at the time.

Good luck

Paul

15

Back in the dark ages, PFM made some decisions about which loco to produce at their captive factory in Japan on the basis of customer requests.

The customer had to take the initiative and send a letter to PFM expressing their desire to purchase (fillintheblank) When enough requests came in to justify a production run, they made it.

Note that they didn’t say, “We’re going to produce Podunk and Northern 4-6-6T #10. Preorder now to get one.”

OTOH, I’m one of those who wants to see the actual model before the card gets swiped - and no North American importer is likely to produce anything I might have a desire for. So, to me, this is simply an academic exercise.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

16

I’m looking at it from running a business. They can’t run on common sense.

17

I don’t mind pre-ordering advanced items. I prefer that the manufacturers keep the eta info as up to date as possible. When my stuff comes in at my LHS I try to pick it up asap so that he can pay his bill on time with my actual money. I don’t order things that he has to pay c.o.d. when they arrive. There are some things that I want to actually see before I buy, about 35% of my total purchases and if I miss out on them it helps me control the budget.

18

ah, I see that thus far the response to that thought has been negative. I was not trying to compare games and trains, I was comparing practices.

Ok, what if Model makers did have 5 sample locomotives for the one you’d like to pre order. Say a popular locomotive on your home road, 5 sample models of said loco for customers to see and one for MRR to do an early review way before to release(gaming companies do this, I.e Game Informer magazine).

My money was where my mouth was and still is there, but real life usually has other things in mind so MRRing has to take a backseat. I can see why some are hesitant to put money down though, a good example is atlas’ Dash 8-32BWH that was supposed to be released in Jan. but remains as elusive as bigfoot.

Keep in mind though putting money down on the pre order is optional. Thank you for your contributions so far guys.

19

OK, even from a business standpoint here is the basic problem with preorders in this business.

A model train locomotive or rolling stock is not a “stand alone” product. You need track, structures, scenery, controls, etc, etc, to build a model railroad.

Part of the motivation to spend any of this money is based on a reasonable assumption that you will be able to get the parts as you need and can afford them - at least the major parts and pieces.

The groecery store does expect you to “preorder” milk, they just assume you will come in and buy when you need it.

If more and more of the pieces of the “Model Railroad Puzzle” become harder to obtain, fewer people will have the desire or confidence to invest any money or time in the first place.

And if the models of interest to them are seldom available, they will become more discouraged.

This leaves the sale of model trains to a smaller customer base, weeding out the more serious “modeler” types in favor of those who just radomly “collect” expensive RTR models of locomotives. To be VERY blunt - if this hobby was only about “COLLECTING” RTR model trains, I would not be in it, and the 3-4 thousand dollars I have spent nearly every year for 40 years would be in my bank, or in some other hobby.

A smart industry would want the largest possible customer base.

So from where I sit, the more product that is “in stock”, the bigger the selection of roadnames, prototypes, etc, the more oppertunity there is to grow the hobby and the industry and thereby sell more.

“just in time” works in some industies, it is not working well in this one.

Right now it is locos and cars, but what if this preorder thing gets to structures, track, control systems???

Personally, I’m glad I already have a large percentage of the locos, cars, track, controls, etc, etc, that I need. Because this type of market would b

20

It’s kind of interesting to see folks stand up, pound their chests, and declare they’ll never pre-order anything. To each his own. If there’s something I want, I usually pre-order through my dealer and get a substantial discount. In general, there’s no reason for a deposit and they are rarely asked for in the industry, because of the negative reaction. People somehow think if they can’t keep an eye on the hands of the supplier at all times, they’ll get robbed.

It’s been my experience that the vast majority of those in model railroading as a business are good honest folks, despite the fact that reactions on these lines we tend to read here treat everyone as if they came from the wrong side of the track via prison. [:O]

Obviously, some new outfit promises the sky for only a small downpayment, then I’d be leery. Most of my dealings with preorders are with established, reliable vendors. If I order the latest run of Genesis Rio Grande F-units, I know what I’ll be getting. Who’s kidding who about this being risky business and why, I’m just not sure.

That Blackstone thing worried me the first time around the block, but turned out well. Hundreds, if not thousands of narrowgaugers regularly preorder the next item from Blackstone to ensure we’ll get it. We may not all be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but Blackstone delivers regardless, even if it’s a new model no one has seen yet. Risky? Hardly, or maybe some folks lead sheltered lives and stuff like that going wrong suddenly keeps them up at night? Well, an asteroid could hit, too, I suppose.

Then there’s the idea that we all get the lowest prices because we don’t preorder and wait out the buyers to vulture over the remains in hope what we want is covered. Well, if you do only spend at deep discount and don’t mind taking the leftovers or just doing without, that’s cool. Your expectations are low and easily satisfied. But increasingly, calling the numbers for production