Something I've noticed...

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

After looking at the forums, internet, ect. the past couple of years, I have come to the conclusion that it seems a majority of the older (or wiser, if you will [swg]) train operaters that had trains as a child but put them aside then come back to them much later in life usually are MTH operators.

By that I mean, they might have grown up in the 40s and 50s. They played with Lionel or Marx trains when they were young, but then got out of them and lost interest in their teens. And after 30 or 40 years, they realize they still like trains and want to have a new layout of their own. They search around and usually go with MTH. Building a medium to large layout using MTH’s DCS and MTH products.

I have much evidence for this, such as in stories told, videos seen, and even information I have heard such as: “Many people don’t know Lionel still exists.”

So, have you noticed this too, or is it just me?

2

I think I’m in that category; but I don’t use DCS or TMCC. I have a fair amount of MTH stuff; but it includes eviscerated locomotives with electromechanical-e-unit transplants.

3

Oh yeah, I fall into that category too. But I havn’t had the time, knowledge, wisdom and to “eviscerate” any of my engines. (That’s a big word Bob, [:)]) The only differences for me Grayson –

  • Had a Broken set as a kid, for about 2 yrs, never got off the floor.

  • Lost all trains during parents divorce.

  • Resumed trains late in high school (PW)

  • AFTER the military, got back into again for a few years. Small layouts, and tried to get 1 train/year. (MPC)

  • Married/Child trains moved to shelf, no new trains for 15 years

  • Got back in for a Christmas and THEN FOUND TMCC !!! Wow, was this heaven or what. THEN discovered DCS !! Holy Smokes !! That was TMCC on steroids!! And, now there was competition, gee the quality is soooo much improved.

THIS IS THE GOLDEN AGE !!! (For operators anyway, just look at York)

4

Hi Grayson…How are you ??

Well, I guess I am an exception:

I got my first Lionel set in 1949. # 2141WS. I still have it. Put it around the Christmas tree every year in the 50s & 60s.

I have a total of 11 engines. Three are Lionel and the rest are Williams. I have no MTH engines. Of the 50 plus cars I have, 2 are MTH. The rest are Lionel and Williams. There you have it.

Chuck

5

Very astute observation Grayson, I’m full into that analogy. I tried to get back into O gauge (re: Lionel) in the early '80’s and just couldn’t afford it. Fast forward to late '90’s–kids gone and a hobby shop owner that recommended MTH and I have not been disappointed. Not sorry at all. AND, I still have respect for Lionel.

6

Nope, left and came back to Lionels. And since I’ve been working on them, I’ll stick to my Lionels. Not impressed with the reliability on the MTH. Nice stuff when it works, a horror when they don’t. Very reliable are my Lionels.

7

Well I guess I’m also the exception as the only MTH I own is 6 Passenger cars (PA.) to go behind my 681 and 671RR and a Jack ASS Beer Boxcar still in its box bought as a joke for my wife as she likes donkeys. Other than that I have 3 TMCC Lionel Engines 1 Williams engine and (including the 2 above) I have 6 conventional steamers. 3 postwar. And about 30 pieces of rolling stock Lionel and 5 pieces Williams.

8

My gut feeling is that the MTH preference will change. DCS came out around 2001, as I recall and was a better system then the much older TMCC. The MTH cruise was also superior to Lionel’s Odyssey.

Legacy came out in late 2007 and is just beginning to take off. The Lionel Legacy cruise is smoother then MTH’s cruise. MTH cruise is smooth above about 4 SMPH. Lionel Legacy cruise is smooth at all speeds. I have never experienced any jerkiness with any Legacy engines at any speed. The Legacy sounds, quillable whistle, trainbrake and the remote are all superior to DCS, in my opinion. MTH will incorporate a quillable whistle in future engines, but it will be a bandaid because the DCS remote is not equipped to easily activate the whistle. MTH may well come out with DCS Plus with a new remote at some point in time, but right now Lionel is back in the lead.

Earl

9

I’m part of your targeted demographic, but don’t conform to your anecdotal data based conclusion.

I’m all Lionel, postwar plus recently acquired MPC, plus a few KMT.

runtime

10

I have seven MTH engines and never again. Five of the seven have needed repairs, not maintenance,repairs. And everyone who has read this forum for awhile knows what I think of the battery.

But your topic has a lot to do where the buyer goes shopping for a train. Some stores carry more of one brand than the others that can change a buyers idea of what to buy. However from my part time years in a well stocked hobby shop give them brands to look at and they will say oh I want a Lionel set. period.

11

Im another exception I guess. i had my first Lionels in the mid-fifties. Unfortunately, I didnt keep them. So years later i returned and started collecting postwar Lionel. I eventually sold all of that off and once again returned to collecting. Now its modern and postwar Lionel for me.

12

Grayson:

An insightful obervation for sure, and I guess time will tell by additional responses if it will be proven out.

I was born in 1953 and ran trains in the 50’s and early 60’s every Christmas season.

I have all the trains my family had then and I have accummulated other post war Lionel trains of interest to me.

I serously doubt I will ever own any MTH. I seriously doubt I will ever go to a command control system of any type.

I somewhat doubt if I will own any modern trains, but if the right “Conventional Classics” set comes out, I could take the plunge.

I do think many folks think like me, and have clung to these trains in our history. I am fully aware that I am missing out on a lot when it comes to operation and details and road names, etc.

However, those things are not important to me. The history and nostalgia of post war trains is my primary interest and all else is a distant second.

The layout I am building now is really my first ever layout short of the green grass paper variety. I hope someday to finish this layout and then at some future time to build a second, larger layout on the same premise but employing the lessons I learned on this one to make that second - and probably my last - layout, the very best I can make it, within the operational confines of the trains I am using.

13

Came back to postwar Lionels with some MPC thrown in. Mike Wolf was painting up and assembling prewar repros in his parent’s home. When MTH came out with PS-1 engines, I tried one and it was waaaay too finicky for my tastes (ding, dang, doink, clunk, “just go sucker, don’t just sit there!”). Lionel comand engines were way much better and would go when you turned the throttle. MTH PS-2 engines are an improvement but they are still a tad finicky. The sounds are good. Nowhere near as good as Lionel Legacy Railsounds. MTH’s detail was chunky for a long time until recently. MTH has finally caught up to Lionel and Atlas O. Both of which have had a high level of scale fidelity since around 2000/2002.

14

Grayson, you need glasses. I think it is the other way around. Still have my trains Santa gave me in the early 50’s. Added more older Lionels while I was trying MTH and DCS. Still have a few PS2 engines but sold a bunch [even gave away a few]. Do not like their sounds and their operation. Went mainly with Lionel and Atlas and TMCC [now Legacy]. I’ve converted several MPC engines and a few PS1 engines to TMCC and Railsounds. Don’t like the DCS controller with its “S” buttons. Do love the Legacy remote. My concern is Lionel and Atlas are not making enough NS modern engines. MTH has made more of that type of engine. Problem is, they only operate with themselves in full command.

15

At 43, I know that I am older than Grayson, but I was born in '65, so I wasn’t around for the 40’s &50’s. I did though have some American Flyer stuff, from the A.C. Gilbert era, Hook and bar couplers and all, when I was young. Then I spent many years in HO, then I bought some O-Gauge for under the Christmas Tree ( I think this is when I started becoming “Wiser”) The O-Gauge Virus bit Me BAD, after that.

My First was a Lionel Hudson jr in Union Pacific, and half a dozen freight cars, I was HOOKED, it wasn’t a week later, that I was back for another FIX, er, I mean, another Train. The second “investment” was an MTH F-3 passenger set, in of course Amour Yellow and Harbor Mist Grey.

I went into the 3-Rail side of the Hobby with NO preconceived bias towards any manufacturer, though I was familiar with the Lionel name. That first MTH set was/and still is a Great set, but after buying more and more(and more and more and more) from each MFGR, I came to find that even though, I have many more Lionels, I have MANY more PROBLEMS with MTH. Unfortunately, there are some things, that if I want , I can only get from MTH, such as the AeroTrain, I also like MTH’s Bantam Daylight set, so I do have some MTH, and have bought some in the last year, MY experience has been that Lionel has given Me fewer problems, and is what I tend to look for now, unless it is one of those few “Gotta Haves” that Lionel just doesn’t offer yet.

The next time someone says “Does Lionel still exist” say yeah, so does MTH, and see if they even have a clue what/who MTH is.

So, I guess that I am another “Exception” to your observation, Grayson.

Doug

16

Grayson: I can’t really relate to the MTH generation.

I’m was a “Prewar” “War” baby. My first train was a “Marx”. Sometime, around age seven, it ‘sort-of’ disappeared. (Years later, I found out that it was actually sold for economic reasons)

While in high school, I started in HO. We lived in a four story walk-up brownstone “railroad” flat and there was just no space for anything larger. I stayed with the smaller size until a few years ago when I got into the O27 Lionel world.

Thanks for asking.

17

There is always be debate about Lionel and MTH popularity, for me it started out with a Kusan battery powered set, about O gauge in size, in that my folks could not spring for a Lionel set back in the early 60’s. I created my first layout on the bedroom floor with this set of 2 cars, caboose and GP7. After considerable time away from the hobby, my first thought was to get a Lionel set for my four year old son’s birthday back in mid 80s. Of course MTH was not around then as a competitor. I’ve stayed the course with LIonel ever since, just getting 1 MTH conventional diesel (without battery). My close friend purchased MTH (w/Proto) but in many incidents was confounded by the battery as he left the engine untouched for periods of time, While I have had disappointments with Lionel engines at times, my observations of my friend’s history with MTH kept me true to Lionel. I would venture a guess to say that your observation of coming to MTH from those of us coming back later in life is on the wrong track…

18

Grayson I think your observation may be a bit off as of now anyway I counted 12 for Lionel and only 3 for MTH so Nice thought and it maybe where you live and who your around but I’ll let you know that a lot depends on the hobby shop I know hobby shops that carry both but will trash Lionel and think the world of MTH and the main reason is they have a bigger profit from MTH and some just do like MTH better. I’ve seen the opposite also but not for profit reason but basically because thats what there lively hood was until late 80’s early 90’s Then you have some that came into the business about that time or later and They sell both and for what ever reason like one or the other better and most I found prefer Lionel because of reliability yes both have problems just like cars they all have some problems and other will be the worlds best same make and model that someone else got that was a real lemon bottom line to me is I’ve always had Lionel and don’t plan to go into MTH dcs I probably down the road buy some more cars and may even buy a engine but run it conventional as they in my view as others shot them self in the foot not being compatible with tmcc. Personally ( although it will never happen I feel) I feel they should get together as they are on some remakes of prewar items and get TMCC and DCS compatible with each other.

19

Sorry … but I don’t think so … I started with an American Flyer set … ended up with K-Line and Lionel . And if you really look close … the K-Line and Lionel engines have much more detail to them . The only MTH products I have are cars " diecast " and acessories for the track and of course the Z-4000 transformer which is light years ahead in design . . I run 99.9 % diecast and the MTH signals and etc. are far more realistic . BUT as far as engines … dumb batteries … lack of detail … undependability … and non compatibility from other command systems … I don’t want any . Almost every huge setup and club in a 150 mile radius of my home is lionel based controls . And as you can see lionel even bought out k-line … to my dismay … we needed more competition . [#dots] … # 13

20

My experience supports Grayson’s conclusion. I have often heard statements something like “I looked at Lionel trains,but the price was out of line, so I went with MTH.” When asked whether they were just getting into or returning to the hobby most answered with the affirmative. When discussing this with long time Lionel purchaser’s many said that they never left the hobby.

Personallly, I am among those who never left the three rail hobby (except for a short time dabling in “N” scale). During the late 1970’s and early 1980’s I spent a lot of time (too much according to Karen) helping a friend in his hobby shop. When I moved to take a new job I still visited frequently as the HS was not too far from my parents and in-laws homes. While visiting I would ask if their customers fit the observed pattern. The response was that in general they also had “new” customers looking for MTH but that the long time customers were sticking with Lionel.