There seems to be general contempt of this MTS legal judgement about MTS versus Lionel et al, hince the malevolence against MTS. Do you all find the US Court contemptible in this case? Do you find the judge or the jury to be contemptible? It is sort of hard to figure out why if a US court finds for one side or the other that you all need to find the courts decision unaccectible unless you are willing to persue higher legal appeal. If you thought you owned something and someone took it and used it and made money with your property what would you do? Spelling errors are of course open to a whole new subject. But why beat up on MTH if a US court found in their favour? I would rather rely on the judgement of the court than public opinion.
"But why beat up on MTH if a US court found in their favour? "
Because in many people’s opinion the judge’s decisions and the jury’s understanding of the issues left a lot to be desired. Like common sense. Many of the events and documents of the case are publicly available and to some people, the jury’s interpretation of these events and documents is wrong headed and without merit…
So I go out and buy an MAC computer system. I am very happy with it’s performance running my Mac software, and I would really like to expand it to use my other software currently operating under PC Windows control. I decide to purchase some cheap hardware with a PC bus on it and I write my own emulater/interface between the MAC system (through the DB9 serial connector mind you) and my PC peripherals system using a very common assembly
Paul,
Dude you are taking this whole MAC/PC thing too far I think… But I like it… [:p]
Although not a perfect parallel, perhaps this would help explain my feeling:
One can win a case and be 100 percent in the right legally, but still be a jerk. Let’s say you broke a picket on your neighbors fence. No big deal, you’ll just fix it this weekend and let him know this evening on the way home from work. While at work you’re served with a suit. The neighbor doesn’t want to discuss it with you. It goes to court. You lose, after all you did break his fence. The court awards your neighbor $1.25 for a new picket, $25.00 to have a handy man install it, $60.00 court costs and $100.00 attorney fees. Plus you missed a day of work for the hearing/trial.
Of course the neighbor could have just given you call and the whole thing would have been taken care of for about $2.00 plus 20 or so minutes of work. But no, he went and did it this way. Of course he is 100 percent legally correct. His property was destroyed by you and he can legally pursue to right that wrong. Would you think he’s being a jerk for doing what he is legally allowed to do?
If you think he is a jerk, does that mean you have contempt for the court? Of course not. The court finding (you broke his fence) is right on. The award is most likely within what the law allows. I have no contempt for the court
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly
Although not a perfect parallel, perhaps this would help explain my feeling:
One can win a case and be 100 percent in the right legally, but still be a jerk. Let’s say you broke a picket on your neighbors fence. No big deal, you’ll just fix it this weekend and let him know this evening on the way home from work. While at work you’re served with a suit. The neighbor doesn’t want to discuss it with you. It goes to court. You lose, after all you did break his fence. The court awards your neighbor $1.25 for a new picket, $25.00 to have a handy man install it, $60.00 court costs and $100.00 attorney fees. Plus you missed a day of work for the hearing/trial.
Of course the neighbor could have just given you call and the whole thing would have been taken care of for about $2.00 plus 20 or so minutes of work. But no, he went and did it this way. Of course he is 100 percent legally correct. His property was destroyed by you and he can legally pursue to right that wrong. Would you think he’s being a jerk for doing what he is legally allowed to do?
If you think he is a jerk, does that mean you have contempt for the court? Of course not. The court finding (you broke his fence) is right on. The award is most like
davekelly,
I like your analogy, and I’m guessing it’s in reference to the Lionel suit based on the language. I think my only problem with it is that the issue wasn’t over a $1.25 picket from a fence, and I doubt a phone call to anyone at Lionel would’ve done much…
Like I said, your analogy is good, but consider when the picket costs several million dollars, a phone call is probably not the best approach (at least not if you want a new picket). Honestly I’m with most people here and elsewhere when it comes to how MTH has handled itself in the view of the public, poorly. I’m sure Mike would have done things differently if he had the benefit of foresight, unfortunately he doesn’t, and so here we are. Only time will tell how things turn out.
A bit excessive? $40 million dollars represents the entire profits of MTH for a few decades at current rates. Even if you believe the theft of trade secrets story (which many do not), there is no way a few high end locomotives by Lionel caused anything remotely like 40 million dollars in losses to MTH, IMO. The jury was snozzled by MTH’s lawyers and Lionel’s lawyers obviously did poorly by comparison. MTH’s losses of the late 1990s and early 2000s were entirely self-inflicted related to their very, very late addition of command control (in 2002, six years after Lionel), and their poorly managed transition between their PS1 and PS2 locomotive systems. Shot themselves in the foot and are trying to use the courts to bail themselves out, IMO.
Bostonrock,
Rely on the U.S court???
In the past, perhaps but look at what happened recently with the “Eminent Domain” issue thanks to the way the liberal judges on the Supreme Court voted! Downright scary! Even Judge O’Conner had a hissy-fit. If it were possible, Thomas Jefferson would be spinning in his grave. Courts and juries are less predictable than ever and their judgements may or may not be wise or fair. Outcomes seem to be based on how well lawyers can manipulate and twist the facts and the rule of law.
But here, (forgive me for repeating) the MTH vs. Lionel issue is not what has HO and N modelers upset. It’s MTH vs. QSI, and all the smelly laundry that came along with it. [B)][V]
There have been some very good posts here, and it’s interesting how some of the posts seem to criticize DCC’s shortcomings. Fair enough.
Let me look at this as a newbie customer’s point of view: (yes I’m still a DCC newbie)
(1) DCC is no longer a new, unproven gimmick.
(2) Its popularity has greatly increased.
(3) Has been around some years now and is more user friendly today.
(4) Well supported by its manufacturers. (Look at TCS’s “no questions asked” warranty)
(5) Available for G thru Z scales.
(6) Excellent sound possibilities. New Sound products are hitting the market.
(7) Loads of written info in books and on the web available to help newbies with DCC.
A model railroad club (huge HO layout) that I visited 2 years ago, overall, had virtually “zero” interest in DCC. A lot of old timers saw no use for it. Today, you can walk into that club as a visiting modeler, a member will hand you a DCC wireless controller and let you run his sound equipped locomotive complete with lighting effects. You can blow the horn, and activate the ditch lights while hearing turbo-chargers and dynamic brakes howl as those locomotives struggle with that long train. That’s what DCC is all about.
Actually, it was more of a conservative vote. The court said it was up to the local jurisdictions (i.e. the states) to decide what the law should be as long as there is just compensation as the Bill of Rights calls for. This is a pretty big win for conservatives who want a strict narrow interpretation of the Constitution and decentralized government . I would have preferred a more liberal result outlawing the use of eminent domain in cases like this one.
As someone once told me - the only thing you get for sure in court is a decision.
Enjoy
Paul
Why not just put all the personal feelings aside and lets see what MTH does in respect to selection and quality models. It seems to me the more manufacturers we have producing HO trains the more completive prices will be, not to mention possibly a better selection of models and more competive prices. ( Example) When MTH announced they were going to do the diecast K4 BLI reduced the dealer cost of their K4 to the approximate same dealer price as the MTH model around $50.00) this allowed the dealers to sell the BLI K4 for less. Look what competition has done in the last 2 years for DCC. It’s hard to belive we would have the selection we have now in DCC if only a couple of companies were sharing the HO market. MTH has a rep for doing models in the “O” gauge hobby that some other company’s were not willing to take a chance on, they know they will have to impress a lot of tough HO hobbyist to make a dent this market and I’m willing to bet we’ll see a lot of good models from them in the next couple of years. What do we care who enters HO if it means better selection and prices. If MTH produces poor models that flop the market will take care of them and they will go away as far as HO is concerned… Thanks Bill
Bill:
I’m all for that, as long as said manufacturer doesn’t pay shills to keep coming on this list and posting hyperbole.
It’s one thing to have us modelers debating the ins and outs of MTH and their product announcements. It’s another to have MTH plants keep coming on here and trying to club us over the head with their hype.
If MTH would just back off and let the forum discussion continue unfettered, I think we would all appreciate it more.
My 2 cents.
The negative stuff you read about MTH are lies. They’ll do well in the HO market once people see the high quality of their products and the advantage of DCS.
Advantage of DCS?
I’m sorry, but I can’t see any advantage from where I’m sat - I can buy DCC equipment from any number of manufacturers and it’ll work together. I’ve had no problems with understanding the wiring or the operation of the system. I fail to see how a proprietory system can be advantageous compared to an open standard like DCC. I’ve not noticed any European manufacturers even mentioning it. Surely if it was as good as it is claimed to be Fleischmann et al would be working like crazy to make their models compatible? All I see right now are more and more models either DCC ready (with a socket) or with a factory-fitted decoder.
Reading about the HO K4, it has DCS and is DCC compatible.
thats a step in the right direction.
DCC is a control system and I could custom make my own, and there are some websites describing just that.
I think we hobbyists are mad because for one BLI had a cool thing in their lokie and it got removed by MTH litigation concerns.
I sometimes grow tired of these lawsuits and its the hobbyist that loses out.
They should find a solution so we can all party and have fun with the trains.
“The negative stuff you read about MTH are lies. They’ll do well in the HO market once people see the high quality of their products and the advantage of DCS.”
They said the same about Stalinism :). DCS has many disadvantages too, which is why when a survey was done on the OGRR Forum last year, of the those using command control, 80% were using TMCC only, 10% DCS and TMCC and 10% DCS only. A great testimony to being second to market six years late with a quirky system.
I would be interested in reading the details about the HO K4, but the information has not been posted.
Where did you find out any details and the promise it will run on both DCC and DCS or DC???
Thanks
It was in the literature that they were handing out at the National train show. The HO line was not exactly prominent on the booth, if you walked past the booth without going into the center of it, you would have missed it. The fact that the K4 HO is not mentioned on the MTH web site and the lack of prominence given to the locomotive at the NTS would suggest that any formal marketing effort has not started as yet.
nblum,
I don’t think TMCC will be around much longer according to Tony Lash. My understanding is that Mr. Wolf is prepared to agree to a settlement for the Lionel name and some compensation for the damages to MTH due to the blueprints stolen by Lionel and the Koreans. I would think he would incorporate DCS into any future Lionel engines.
If Mike Wolf actually winds up owning the Lionel name and puts DCS in Lionel locos, he will practically guarantee going bankrupt in the next five years, given the amount of money he would almost certainly need to borrow to own the Lionel name.