Up through the mid '50s the SP was a very prosperous railroad then it started a down hill spiral to almost bankruptcy. What mergers could the SP have done in the 50s and 60s to prevent this spiral? What were the underlying causes for their almost demise? Please stay away from recent events such as the UP merger or the aborted SF-SP merger, but think back to the good old days when there were many class 1s and what ones would have been a good fit.
Mark Hemphill did an excellent article about just this subject in Trains not too long ago. Basicaly there cornerstones of traffic dried up or went to trucks. The autoparts bussiness went away when the california assembly plants closed. The perishable traffic was lost to trucks. The lumber bussiness declined. SP found itself with too many miles and too little traffic.
Hi Mark, Just wanted to say that the article I mentioned is one of my all time favorites. That mag will automaticaly go into the never throw away pile because of it. Thanks for that great article.
GASP - you have to differentiate? I threw away the “throw away box” years ago - it had never been used…
I don’t recall if it was Mark’s article or another pertaining to SP that had a picture that could not be duplicated today, as every car in the train was associated with a business no longer in existance, either at all, or from a RR perspective.
For many years I lugged around every train mag I ever bought. It got to the point I had about 7-8 linear feet in magazines alone, not counting books. But one particular move I made I just had to get rid of a lot of stuff. The magazines ended up being a target for disposition. I really regret having done that but at the time I really had no choice. I went through the entire pile and ended up keeping about a dozen mags. The ones I kept had articles that were all time greats. Like the ?/78’ Trains issue with Ted Benson’s epic article on Nevada railroading. And an early 90’s article about Jim “the Bear” Mahone and keeping Donner clear. The Trains with Marks SP article will be joining the “greats” in my “keep forever pile”.
GASP indeed! Next time the “throw away” box gets full,call me And I will send some money for postage.[:0]…Ah…what higher compliment could a reader give a writer, than putting his work in the “don’t throw away” box.[;)]
Murphy, I wish I would have known that back then, I’d have mailed you the whole lot. I had every Trains, Pacific Railnews,CTC Board, Railfan and Railroad, and Deisel Era from 89’ to 98’ plus many from the late 70s early 80s. It was either the magazines or the HO trains. I don’t regret keeping the trains but I do regret having to toss the mags.
Mark, thanks for your insight. The MoPac would have made a great partner. The only thing that thr Rock would have done is given the SP the connection at Santa Rosa. Not much use for the remainder of the Rock.
My thoughts about the SP was the dire financial straights they were in before being gobbled up by Uncle Pete. Their north-south monopoly on the west coast, as you and Chad pointed out, was getting a few holes in it with the traditional traffic base drying up. Yes, they did ignore the Sunset Route. Fortunately UP is investing heavily in that line with the T&P connection through Dallas not carrying more traffic than the line from Sierra Blanca east. Since I live in the Dallas area it is nice to see the increased traffic.
The SP, like all of the other railroads, started rationalizing their network several years ago based on the economic model of the day. Today we see increasing traffic with the railroads kicking themselves for the abandonments or single tracking they did in the name of keeping Wall Street happy. Will they ever learn?
Here’s an SP releated question: Whatever happened to SP’s trucking company? I can remember seeing semi trucks in Southern California with red tractors and silver-colored trailers with the railroad’s name on them frequently before they disappeared some time in the late '70s or early eighties. Did SP sell the trucking company to another business or allow it to expire?
After losing money for many years it was sold to Pacer about ten years ago.
The only SPabandonments I can think of out west:
Modoc line- always just a shortcut for Oregon lumber headed east was made redundant by UPs original OSL line Portland-Green River
Pheonix line- A redundant secondary line used by Amtrak and not much else.
Single tracking on the Overland- Not nearly as much as most people think (less than 20 miles were removed from the hill). during the 80s & 90s traffic was way down on this route because UP got there own line into the bay area with the WP merger. and SP favored the Sunset, which is where that second main ended up.
To us, Southern Pacific fans, that was a considerable loss.
It seems like the last the question, “What company should SP have merged with in the early 1960s?” was raised, CEI and SCL came up.
Had the Coast Line been permanently closed, it definately would have been a boon to railfaning on this side of the coast range.
I might as well ask one more pointless “what if”. What would have been the effect on SP’s various branchlines in the Central Valley had railroads (and consequently the hauling of perishables via rail) be deregulated sooner?
Just to be different, How about SP + Wabash?
In speaking with SPRR execs at the time they contended that because they had to connect with another RR such as UPRR/DRGW/RIRR to get to the eastern markets they would never be able to compete with ATSF/UPRR for the intermodal traffic which was the growing traffic at that time. That is why they purchased the GSR which they thought would finally allow them to compete for the intermodal traffic. As you know that decision also was faulty & they had no good route open to them beyond KC. They also attempted to cut prices on the container traffic but due to poor transit times could not compete with UPRR/ATSF. In fact at that time in conjuction with CNW via Fremont the UPRR used to run a very hot intermodal train called the “Falcon” LAX/Chic schedule was 48 hours & it would make that time line most days. Then the CNW moved the traffic over to the NWRR & them & the DHRR would get the traffic to NJ in another 30 hours + the 12 hour layover in Chicago giving my company a 4 day transit Lax/NJ. THe BNRR used to do the same for us from Seattle except the BNRR transit was slower so it took 5 days Seattle/NJ. There was no way for SPRR to compete with that transit time even though they offered cheaper rates as the consignees demanded fastest possible transit which eliminated SPRR from all that traffic. [:o)][:p]
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Originally posted by chad thomas
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Mark-The lines that comes to mind for down sizing is the former B&O between Pittsburgh and Chicago. They pulled up the second track on a large part of the line and CSX is finishing up replacing it at this time.
Another could be the Florida East Coast which pulled up one of the tracks along the coast. With the current traffic levels, especially with commuter service the second main would be useful today.
Another possibility was an unused SP line from Dallas to Eustace along US175. Yes, the 30 miles that were removed was not being used, however, DART would have been interested is acquiring it as a future commuter line. DART did buy the remaining section between I-635 and downtown Dallas on which they will soon be building their Pleasant Grove line. Since the line from loop 635 to Eustace was abandoned it would be almost impossible to recover it for a future commuter corridor. I am a “retired” member of the board of directors for DART and currently live at Cedar Creek Lake. Every day when I ride home I look at the abandoned ROW and almost cry when thinking of the lost opportunity.
Another short sighted item was BN’s taking out of service the Stephens Pass line in the Cascades. Fortunately they did not pull up the track and put it back in service without too much expense.
Another BNSF potential error was selling off the “redundant” line across Montana to Montana Rail Link. With the increased traffic I have heard thay would like to have parts of it back.
NS/Conrail pulled up one of the 4 tracks on the PRR main through Pennsylvania. With the increased traffic today will NS relay the line?
The SP abandoned their line along the Texas Gulf Coast and obtained traffic rights on the parallel Mo Pac line. Now KCS is buying what remains of this line so they can control most of the track they use between Chicago and Mexico City.
Mark, this is all that comes to mind at this time. Granted at the time the decision was
I believe the CNW took up 1 of the 2 tracks fron Chic to Fremont also. [:(]
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Originally posted by wrwatkins
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I may be mistaken, but before Pacer, I think the SP franchise went to PIE, [Pacific Intermountain Express], and then became part ofRYDER -PIE before that operation was bled dry and allowed to go down the drain.
As for rationalization, who about when the Illinois Central scrapped their 2 and 3 track, Main Line of Mid America, and have paid for that ever since with slower speed and less options to move trains.
Mark_W… Shoulden’t you be in bed? Pretty late in Baghdad now?? Hope all is well with you there. Have enjoyed your fingerprints at TRAINS. And enjoy your inetaction on the Forum. I have not seen anthing about what your duties are there other than something to do with the Iraqi Railway.[^][^][:D]
I love these rosey nosed games of semantics. Whether it’s “small beer” or “big popcorn” is kinda immaterial isn’t it?
The way the purse strings are in most companies I’m familiar with, I’ll bet the guy who had to make the argument to the financial people that he wanted to spend money putting back what they had just spent money pulling up would have rather kicked himself than have to face their skepticism…Not “would rather blow his own brains out” mind you, just “would rather kick kimself”. [:D]
I am not sure the CN is all too upset about the former IC’s rationalization of the mainline. The traffic on that line is not that heavy at this time…probably 25 trains a day and then that is split at Edgewood. At the time they did it, they were in need of a jump start. IC was not a very healthy railroad at the time.
The one line that jumps off of the map to me is the CSX elimination of the St Louis line across Ohio.
Today, I look at the map and see a big void where the Kankakee Belt Line used to run around Chicago. Granted, it would have been tough for the UP to get to that line, but imagine the bypass possibilities.
I have been fascinated about the Erie Lackawanna and how it could have fit in. I think I will start a new thread on it.
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