Back in 1991, Conrail offered to sell the Southern Tier to D&H (aka CP). Does anyone know any more details on this? I have a couple dates, but that’s it. Price? Locos? Exactly which lines? It appears that CR and CP couldn’t agree on a price, but CP was interested. Why did Conrail offer to sell the Tier? I know the line was used more for overflow from the old PRR and NYC lines, but were there other factors? What if Guilford still owned the D&H - would CR still have been willing to sell the line? Thanks for any info you have!
The only Southern Teir Line sale I know about is the section that NS sold to the state of New York. They run Metro-North between Hoboken and Port Jervis on this line and the sale allowed NS to use the line without having to pay taxes on it.
The Southern Tier is currently leased to Metro North (Suffern to Port Jervis,NY) and a subsidiary of the Susquehanna (Port Jervis to Binghamton) by NS. NS leases before they sell apparently, but they have control over various things on these lines. There was a plan to sell it to D&H some years back when it was Conrail, but that didn’t work out and CR actually added a couple of trains. NS had plans to operate trains on the line but were met with other factors including opposition from NJTransit who owns the New Jersey lines and objected to an increase in freight activity. Plus with the rebuilding of the Penn lines they could expand capacity there and not worry about it. Eventually NS just had little use for the former Erie main which has had a history of on again off again importance since the end of EL. The Susquehanna runs its couple of road trains by way of their main line and a connection at Campbell Hall, NY. NS has local activity to Port Jervis and the NJT lines, and occasionally runs a long enough train to make it almost seem like a real through train. Although those of us along the NJT lines here in North Jersey always would have liked to see a revitalization of our railroad as a through route, it isn’t to be. I think the current lease deals are what’s gonna be for a while. I believe NJTransit actually controls the line to Port Jervis.
Doesn’t the “Southern Tier Line” also include the Binghamton - Buffalo stretch? I drive along that road frequently and see lots of fast NS traffic
Not to hijack this thread, but what is the former Erie line west from Hornell to Meadville called? Isn’t that also the “Southern Tier Line”? WNY&P operates it today and I see occasional overhead NS freights
I believe the former Erie main west of Hornell through to Meadville was referred to as the “Meadville Line” (please correct me if I’m wrong). I always found the naming confusing as I grew up along the line and it runs through the Western part of the Southern Tier of NY. I certainly wish the Meadville Line had seen the traffic levels of the Southern Tier line when I was watching trains in the early 80’s.
–Reed
Yeah I believe you’re right about it being the “Meadville Line”. I bet it was something back in the day - that whole region (SWNY) is replete with abandoned rail beds
I believe that the “Southern Tier” line is a reference to the old Erie Main covering the distance between Hornell and Binghamton. Recently, some have taken to including the remaining remnants of the old Lackawanna main to Buffalo under the term.
When NS and CSX carved up Conrail this trackage was given to NS almost as an afterthought or throw-in. Almost immediately, NS began looking for an outright buyer including CP and various regional shortlines. That didn’t work out but CP did (and does) lease trackage rights from Buffalo to Binghamton. This proved fortunate after last year’s flooding that wiped out significant portions of the CP’s Albany to Binghamton line. The Southern Tier line was relatively unaffected and traffic was rerouted over this line within a couple of days. NS traffic has picked up with daily coal unit trains to power stations in the Finger Lakes and mixed freights diverted from the NS main in PA to free up capacity for additional intermodel and unit train traffic on that line. How big a comeback the lines from Meadville and Buffalo will make remains to be seen but substantial resources are being put into roadbed and track upgrades.
Poppyl
Sorry, but the above is a substantial misstatement of the actual facts. NS did not look for a buyer for the Tier. Indeed NS planned a major terminal at Binghamton and even considered an intermodal terminal there. Resistance by New Jersey Transit and Metro-North Commuter Railroad (MTA) ultimately made this unrealistic.
Conrail did discuss a sale to CP as was dicussed above well prior to the beginning of negotiations between CSXT and Conrail and the ultimate three way split of CR. CP wanted to buy the Tier because the trackage rights fees it was required to pay CR made much of the CP traffic moving over the Tier unprofitable. CR reportedly decided not to sell due to competitive concerns.
A
I know the Tier has had on-again, off-again performance and traffic levels for both NS and CR. I’ve heard all the “current” rumors about possible sales, but I was just curious about the early 1991 transaction that didn’t happen. I hadn’t heard about that sale before.
On another note though, do you think that if Guilford still owned the D&H that the break up of CR would have hurt them?
LC;
Now it’s time for me to disagree with you. But I will give you the haulage versus trackage rights point. My mistake.
You mention no change in coal traffic. When I see the unit trains go from a frequency of every two or three days to Dresden to a daily run, that looks like an increase in traffic.
My source for the references to NS’s thinking on the Southern Tier line and possible sale to CP is Chapter 27 of Rush Loving’s book “The Men Who Loved Trains.” The chapter outlines at some length the thinking of Goode and McClellan as they negotiated with Levan and Snow and countered Levan’s idea of keeping the X together under CSX. There is also mention of their thinking on a possible sale of the Southern Tier to CP. Now if Loving’s summary ofMcClellan’s recollection of what occurred during this period is incorrect, then I apologize for using him as a source.
Coal traffic hasn’t changed much. There are always seasonal cycles. Right now power plants are stocking up for a hot summer with lots of folks having the central air cranked. Also, there are differences in the flow to Dresden and Solvay depending on whether mines on CSX or NS have the contract. Some of what you are seeing may be heading to Solvay for the cogen as well via FGLK. The coal trains are called off the extra board at Gang Mills for delivery.
As to the trackage/haulage rights take a look at STB Docket No. AB-156-25X, Delaware & Hudson Railway Comapny, Inc. - Discontinuance of Trackage Rights - Between Lanesboro, PA and Buffalo, NY.
As to Mr. Lovings book, it is an interesting look into the corporate thought process, but hardly comprehensive.
LC
LC;
Okay so whether NS wanted to dump the line as part of the Conrail breakup or afterward, it never happened and whatever plans NS had for the line were thwarted by the New Jersey situation (which in part might explain the creation of the Harrisburg intermodel yard).
The question still remains as to the future of the line. Both NS and WNY&P are investing in roadbed upgrades with NYS contributing some funds through the transportation bond issue. It doesn’t seem that coal and haulage fees alone could justify this kind of investment unless this whole thing is political. So what do you think?
BTW, I am surprised that the unit train to Dresden is still a call out since this has been going on for over a year and one can almost set a watch by the schedule of the northbound and southbound runs. This began right after NS completed a tie and ballast replacement from Corning to Dresden, added another storage track at Dresden, and a couple of storage tracks at what was the old NYC Corning yard.
Poppyl
NS is running enough traffic across the Tier to keep it viable for the time being. Don’t kid yourself that coal is lucrative traffic. It could probably support most of the Tier by itself.
As to investment in the WNY&P, that has a political component and it has the advantage for NS of getting rid of property taxes as WNY&P has a deal with NYS on tax abatements. Also, lets not forget the question of the long term future of the Portageville Bridge. At present that remains a 10mph bridge with NS wanting NYS to fund a new structure. That may or may not happen. If it doesn’t happen or the bridge fails before it happens NS may have to use the WNY&P for all traffic from the west.
The coal moves out of Gang Mills off the extra board just as it has for many years. It comes to GM on the regular Bison to GM pools. Not only does the Dresden coal move this way but also Milliken
So this question is about the real Tier, but why exactly did CR sell the old DLW main south/east of Scranton? Had they kept this line, would it of been easier to get into the New York/New Jersey area? I know of all the commuter operations South of Port Jervis on the old Erie, but I don’t know what happens on the DLW lines. Any inputs on this?
Now you have opened up a completely new topic. The smiple answer to your question is that Conrail tore up the cutoff and east of the cutoff is NJT.
To understand what happened with the DL&W you need to look back to the formation of Conrail. Made up of seven major bankrupt railroads in the Northeast (PC(NYC & PRR), NH, LV, EL, L&HR, CNJ and RDG) and subsidiaries (PRSL and AA) CR had a number of east west lines. In an effort to concentrate traffic on certain lines primarily the PRR main and to a lesser degree the NYC Water Level Route CR abandoned substantial portions of others. For example, the Lehigh Valley mainline is largely gone west of Van Etten Jct as a result of this effort.
The DL&W main had already been rationalized prior to the formation of CR. After the EL merger of 1960 large portions of the western end of the DL&W in NY State were taken up. West of the end of the Vestal Spur which is ther end of the former DL&W main just west of Binghamton the DL&W is gone. Most of it became part of the ROW of NY Rte 17/I-86. The long spirals and the helper district over the mountains west of Wayland was gone in favor of the better Erie line grade profiles.
Under CR the east end of the former DL&W in NJ west of Dover was torn up for over 30 miles and CR wanted to even sell the embankment to a contractor for backfill. To the west of the Delaware Water Gap this line is owned by a governmental authority and is operated by Genessee Valley Transportation’s Delaware Lackawanna Railroad Co.
LC
Now you have opened up a completely new topic. The smiple answer to your question is that Conrail tore up the cutoff and east of the cutoff is NJT.
To understand what happened with the DL&W you need to look back to the formation of Conrail. Made up of seven major bankrupt railroads in the Northeast (PC(NYC & PRR), NH, LV, EL, L&HR, CNJ and RDG) and subsidiaries (PRSL and AA) CR had a number of east west lines. In an effort to concentrate traffic on certain lines primarily the PRR main and to a lesser degree the NYC Water Level Route CR abandoned substantial portions of others. For example, the Lehigh Valley mainline is largely gone west of Van Etten Jct as a result of this effort.
The DL&W main had already been rationalized prior to the formation of CR. After the EL merger of 1960 large portions of the western end of the DL&W in NY State were taken up. West of the end of the Vestal Spur which is ther end of the former DL&W main just west of Binghamton the DL&W is gone. Most of it became part of the ROW of NY Rte 17/I-86. The long spirals and the helper district over the mountains west of Wayland was gone in favor of the better Erie line grade profiles.
Under CR the east end of the former DL&W in NJ west of Dover was torn up for over 30 miles and CR wanted to even sell the embankment to a contractor for backfill. To the west of the Delaware Water Gap this line is owned by a governmental authority and is operated by Genessee Valley Transportation’s Delaware Lackawanna Railroad Co.
LC
What year did CR tear up the cutoff? I didn’t think they sold the lines to the D-L until the early 90s. I also understand the need for fewer lines, so maybe I should rephrase my question… Why choose the Erie over the DL&W? From everything I’ve ever seen, I think the EL favored the Erie line, but it seems like there would be more business and less commuter traffic on the Lackawanna line.
I believe the rail on the cutoff was taken up in '84.
There are quite a few posts on this topic on other forums. The Cutoff was a great piece of engineering but to the east operations were hampered by the grade at Great Notch and commuter traffic. Prior to the merger, The DL&W apparently had a superior route for freight on their Boonton line which ran through Paterson, NJ. This route was sold to the government around the time of the EL merger and used for the ROW for Interstate 80.
–Reed
Service largely stopped by 1979 with rail lifted in 1984.
D-L never bought any of the lines. They are only the most recent operators of the trackage which is owned by various Pennsylvania counties.
During the EL years the dynamics of the merger of the Erie and the DL&W caused most freight to be shifted from the Lackawanna to the Erie lines. Passenger primarily moved over the former DL&W lines. The heavy Pocono grades on the DL&W made it less freight friendly.
LC
Ahh - good information. Thanks for clearing things up guys!