Spanish rail accident

Trains Magazine Passenger
21

I’ve read multiple reports that there were 2 crew members in the Cab.

Of course there have been wrecks when everyone in the cab was asleep…

22

Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for “civil” speed restrictions as well as block signals.

in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a “clear” in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.

The primary exception (outside of the world of urban mass transit) would be Amtrak’s ACSES system (the “C” stands for civil).

23

Now CNN and USATODAY are reporting that the engineer “bragged” he was going the speed limit. Since when is the speed limit against rules/law? Saying you are going the speed limit is not bragging, but why was he on facebook going 125 mph?

But the news is missing the point. Once again, these morons are on their phone when they should be driving the train. Do they really have a death wish?

24

Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred.

Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?

25

First i am not an expert or familiar with the Spanish system. However, one story said the system was not installed in the section leading up to that curve.

26

CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

mario; Several questions.

1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ?

2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc’s inverters ?

3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ?

4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?

27

Since the locomotive did not derail first its center of gravity, etc. had nothing to do with it…it was pulled off the track by the following cars derailing.

28

Mario_v,

This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions.

Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain?

How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving?

If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law?

Thanks

29

Henry, you weren’t listening. In this design, the ‘diesel’ is in a separate module, behind the ‘locomotive’. And this module, pretty clearly (in the video), was the first part to derail…

30

as a retired train driver who worked high speed trains can i add a few comments.NO the driver would not be asleep the safety features on high speed trains dont allow it.which brings me to the question why had the powers that be not installed ERTMS to operate on that section of track a section where you are reducing speed from 140mph to 50mph.know where else in europe would that happen.were management trying to save money??.yes the driver cocked up big style( but there isnt a train driver in the world who hasnt had a bum clenching moment at sometime in his career ) so before everyone hangs him out to dry management need to be answering some questions.but like management all over the world they will be slinking back under the stones avoiding the glare of publicity and letting the driver take all the flack.

31

Here is a picture that illustrates a train in the same class: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13

Interestingly, the front power nodule has two 4-wheeled trucks, while the diesel unit has just one, and a one axle truck supporting the back end and the front of the first car. Might this have something to do with pulling the rest of the train off the tracks? It seems like having a coupling and two 4-wheeled trucks would be easier on maintenance, (detach the whole unit for service) and safer in an accident.

NW

32

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13

This view is very informative. Somehow I was under the impression that this train had only a diesel at one end. If it had a diesel at the other end that may have been heavy enough to cause the train set to acordian ? Is the diesel much heavier than the talgo cars ? BTW — personally I do not like the single axel Talgos. Something for investigators to look at.

Another item none of us have mentioned is distracted driving. The investigators will certainly look at that possibility especially a Chatsworth type distraction ?

33

Saw a video clip of the wrecking operations - one of the cars was lifted onto a normal appearing flat bed trailer to be moved away from the scene. The crane did not appear to be ‘heavy duty’ in lifting the car and the trailer appeared to be your everyday flat bed - nothing heavy duty about it either.

There will be many engineering lessons to be learned in any number of areas from this incident.

34

Here’s some info regarding the Spanish ‘ASFA’ system. As it has been said, it was (and in some manner it still is) a ‘classic’ cab signal system. But in its later versions it evolved into a more complete system, giving not only the usual signal ‘aspect’ information, but also controlling braking curves (in order to provide a ‘smooth’ braking), but also line speed, and even speed restrictions.

Wikipedia info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuncio_de_Señales_y_Frenado_Automático

Ferropedia (spanish site, spanish only) : http://w

35

As far as the train’s carachteristics are concerned, there’s an excelent reference, but its in Spanish. Here’s the link : http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_730

As it is explained there, these trains are a batch of 15 that have been adapted to have a diesel engine in a ‘coach’ behind the electric TRAXX power car. When the diesel is activated, the electric locos became slugs (the truck in this second car is just for weight purposes), and also all secondary services are fed by it, meaning that power available for traction purposes is reduced, as well as its maximum operational speed (180 Kmhr / 112 Mph). Judging by the type of engine and general configuration, it must not be much different from the new Cascades power cars. As for the higher centre of gravity, indeed these diesel ‘modules’ (as I prefer to call it ), its true, but after seeing the derailment movie for a lot of times, I would say that the power combo, in a first moment seems to hold itself well, until the first to (very) leighweight pa

36

Hello Sam1

Question 1 - I’m not an engineer, but some years ago I worked as a railroader in my country’s railway, and due to specifics of the job (I worked in the motive power & scheduling department), I was ‘forced’ to do a lot of cab rides and ‘terrain’ inspection. As matter of effect, I’m living ‘next’ to Spain, I’m Portuguese, but during my railway years and in leisure time I’d travel a lot in the spanish rail system, and Galicia, where the accident happened is quite close, so I’ve experienced all the ‘changes & upgrades’ (which are still far from complete).

Question 2 - Talgo trains & locomotives (belonging to Bombardier’s TRAXX family)and other trains (railcars and ‘Bitrac’ locomotives built by CAF), are capable of changing gauge in a completely automatic process, and can do it ‘on the fly’ although at very reduced speed (no more that 12 Mph). There’s a video that I’m going to add showing how that is done.

Question 3 - Although the engined pledged himseflf guilty, something that hasn’t yet been totally proofed, it will get a hevy penalty, 25 to 25 years.

The gauge change video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8N7Ikw87tM

37

Some miscelaneous facts I caught up in the news relatad with the accident

  1. Just before the curve the HSL has a big straight section 50 miles long, in wich the maximu speed permitted is ‘limited’ to 137 Mph (on paper it says 180, but without ERTMS, a ‘digital’ version of ÃASFA is in use, with wayside signals, hence the limit) ;

  2. The Autonomous govenment of Galicia and also the Engineers syndicate had complained to RENFE/ADIF about the fact of the speed in the area being too high, mentioning that the reduction in speed should be pulled back 6 miles and not only 2,5. The syindicate also presented a formal complaint in justice against Renfe, due to pressures to accomplish things as they are, without considering the perception of who works on the terrain ;

  3. The engineer in cause was known by his colleagues as a ‘snail’ because it would start accomplishing speed restrictions earlier than everybody, meaning that ‘his’ trains would always get late ;

  4. The train was sibmitted to a complete check up’ just days before ;

  5. The train that passed before (2 hours) reported trouble in the signal system in the same place (went into emergency braking) ;

  6. ‘Black boxes’ to be opened today ;

  7. Alledgedly the engineer pledged guilty due to ‘distraction’ (his words)

38

Mario_v

The gauge change video is fantastic. Without it I doubt that I would have grasped so quickly how it works.

All the best,

Sam1

39

The speed of the gauge change is amazing - my bigger question is how are the wheels secured on the axle to mantain whatever gauge has been set? Additionally, what is the wear rate on the wheel/axle combination as compared to a standard wheel axle set?

40

Normally the wheels, during the process, in case of Talgos (independent) are loose. In other cases (CAF), the axles are telescopic, meaning that the wheels are also loose when changing. In terms of wear, I do not have any info about it, but I suppose its not much different from ‘regular’ wheelsets