I greatly enjoy this forum and the helpful responses. I have some specific DCC questions. Right now I have the Bachmann E-Z Command and it’s been enjoyable. In addition to programming CVs, I’m interesting in upgrading for a couple of reasons:
To be able to recall the speed of running locomotives. Of the Prodigy Express, NCE PowerCab, or Digitrax Zephyr, can any recall the speed of a locomotive that’s running? That is, which do not revert to the speed of the last locomotive?
Of the three listed, only the Zephyr can run DC locos, right?
Of the three listed, which can easily run more than 2 locomotives at a time?
I’m not concerned about power. It’s usually only me, but I do enjoy having 3-4 locomotives running at a time.
The ‘recall’ is done through a memory ‘stack’ that keeps information like the speed , direction, etc of each engine running. I am familiar with Digitrax, but I assume the other command stations do this in the same way.
The Zephyr can do this, but being able to run DC engines really is not a good function. Motor overheating, hum noise, and using up the packet bandwidth are all issues with running a DC engine on address ‘zero’.
Are you talking about total engines, cabs - What? The base NCE system can have 2 cabs without expansion, and I am no sure how many trains/engines you can have going at any time. The Zephyr can address 10 engines at one time, and multiple cabs can be attached.
One system not mentioned by Tony because is is sold directly to the public is EasyDCC by CVP Products of Richardson, Texas. You can compare their system by going to their web page:
Any of the systems that you mention will do 1 and 3 and do them well. You are correct in that the Zephyr can run a DC loco, but much as I like the Zephyr (it is what I use) I would not suggest you make your decision on this feature alone. I do use it, but only on rare occasions and usually just to see if the loco runs without a decoder before I install one.
I’ll tell you what the DC operation feature was good for - my father in law has a Bowser PRR T1 that was built many years ago but never run. None of the old DC packs I had could run it. I put it on the DCC track and dialed up address 00 - and got it to move. After running a while in both direction it finally started to get broken in and loosen up. The gorss pulse effect that the zero stretching has was just what those old power hog Pittman-style motors needed (it’s a dual motor unit).
The Zephyr will change the speed of a recalled loco to match the throttle setting, because the speed control is a potentiometer. The only potentiometer-equipped DCC system I’ve seen that DOESN’T do this is the new ESU system, because it uses motor-driven potentiometers, so when you recall an already running loco, the knob actually turns. German Engineering at its best, use a complex motor driven potentiometer when an encoder does the job with one simple part. This is why I bought a DT400 throttle to go with my Zephyr - I rarely touch the console anymore. I could probably put the whole thing under the bench. Encoderkbobs give much better control because it takes more than one turn to go fom stop to max speed. Unless you twist fast - they are ballistic (at least the ones in Digitrax throttles are - and it’s configurable, so if you don’t like that you can turn it off. But it comes in handy when you have one of those oh ^%& moments - crank the knob and the speed jumps to 0 nearly instantly. Unles you have momentum programmed in the decoder) like a computer mouse - move slowly and it goes one step at a time, move fast and it jumps in larger increments.
I don’t know if I’m asking my questions the right way. I think I understand about the Zephyr and speed recall. Thanks. It looks like the PowerCab has a knob as well for speed control. What about the Prodigy Express? What happens when you switch back to a locomotive running at a different speed than the one you controlled previously?
As for the PowerCab, I read this in a review: “There are some limitations to the Power Cab. It only has a recall of depth of two.” What exactly does this mean?
What I’m trying to figure out is if it is worth upgrading from the Bachmann. I know I get to the CVs with something else, but I’d really like speed recall and the ability to have more than 2 locomotives going at once.
Can’t answer your question about the Prodigy Express.
As far as the recall stack, it means the number of locos the throttle can “remember” at any given time. So with the PowerCab, it can “remember” the loco you’re controlling and one other one. You have to switch back and forth between the two.
However, with the Zephyr/DT400 conbination Randy has, you can control two locos at the same time, even with the Zephyr’s console hidden away. That’s because the DT400 is a dual throttle. You have two sets of speed and direction controls, and each gets half of the display area. And, it has a user-selectable recall stack depth of 4, 8, or 16.
Another gotcha with the PowerCab is that it’s only 1.7 amps, which isn’t a lot. But if you decide so add it’s so-called Smart Booster, you apparently lose functionality. And if I understand correctly part of what you lose is the programming track! Nothing like having to take a step forward and two steps back when you “upgrade” your system.[sigh]
Steve, I think this will raise the ire of the Power Cab fan base. As I understand it, you do keep the programming track when you add the Smart Booster, it is just that it becomes an independent separate entity to the main system. To achieve it you keep the original Power Cab panel separate connected to the program track(it has not other use in a system with the Smart Booster). You then have to unplug your PowerCab throttle from the Smart Booster system and plug it into the Power Cab panel to use the program track. For many this would not be an inconvenience as they would mostly program on the main. One thing that I do think is a shame with the Power Cab implementation is that when you add the 3A Smart Booster there is no way to use the 1.7A booster that came with the system. When I added a 5A booster to my Zephyr I was able to keep using the 2.5A booster of the Zephyr for my yard power district.
When I was deciding on an inexpensive first DCC system, I would have to say the one thing that detered me from buying the zephyr was that it is NOT walk around capable. If you like sitting in one location to operate your trains, then it would be OK.
I on the other hand I like to get up, and move around to switch my engines at other industries and such. I can do that with the NCE powercab because it has a 7 foot tethered throttle. AND if you so choose, you can lengthen it.
Yes, I know you can add a tethered throttle to both starter systems, BUT when you are buying your first starter system and want to stay within a budget, the NCE powecab is the only way to go if you want to move around your layout. This is assuming of course you dont have some monstrosity thats 40’ X 20’, but then again you would not buy a starter DCC set either for that. My layout is 11X7 and this system works perfectly for that.
Even though the recall stack is only 2 on the Powercab you can run as many trains as the power limit will allow. I have had as many as 7 N-sclae locos running at the same time with the Powercab alone. This was simply to see what the limits were, but it was a bit nerve racking. I simply had to know the loco numbers and re-enter to recall. I don’t have an issue with the recall stack of 2 as I have three additional throttles and it is not a normal practice of mine to run more than 3 trains at once. At 7 locos the system never shut down, so the 1.7 amps did more than expected.
The powercab is limited to 1 additional throttle and with the Smart Booster you can add 2 more. The program track for the powercab will have to be powered from the original power panel but its not that big a deal, although I was a bit dissapointed at first.
Most who have learned and understood their choice of system seem very happy with the given and druthers as there will be good and not so good features. I like the teathered throttle of the Powercab, some like the abillity to add 2 dc powerpacks to the Zephyr. Its your choice, just jump in.
Here we go again. [sigh] Another subtle “bashing” of the Power Cab by Steve. Steve, if you’re going to paint the picture, paint the WHOLE picture and stop being vague. Let’s take a look at the issues mentioned:
Power Cab - 1.7 amps
Zephyr - 2.5 amps
Taking 0.5 amps per locomotive as a base to compare things with, that means you can run a couple more locomotives with the Zephyr. With that being the case, the Zephyr would have a leg up in this respect over the Power Cab.
Again, it’s important that ALL the facts be presented. Here’s what you gain with the Smart Booster (SB3):
A total maximum output increase from 1.7 amps to 3 amps.
A Power Cab OS upgraded from V.1.1 to V.1.28.
An increase of accessible functions from 13 (F0-F12) to 29 (F0-F28). Digitrax also has plans to do this later on in the year, as well.
I think I am (and maybe others are, as well) still a bit fuzzy on what question you are really asking. When you say that you “really want speed recall”, are you wanting:
Some type of speed indicator on your throttle or system display to know how fast you are going in “prototype” speed? (e.g. MPH)
Some type of speed indicator on your throttle or system display to know incrimentally where you are from either top speed or stop?
If it’s the former, I’m not aware of any DCC systems that will do that. Each locomotive prototype had it’s own top speed so your DCC system would have to know the specific type in order to do this.
Tim, there are sound decoders (QSI comes to mind) that come with a fucntion called SMPH (Scale Miles Per Hour) that enables you to activate and hear a verbal acknowledgement of a particular locomotive speed, at any given moment, as it’s going around the track. On my Power Cab, it’s F10.
I think what he’s asking is generally what happens with pushbutton and encoder throttles but does not happen with potentiometer throttles. As in, you dial up loco 123. You get it running forward at speed step 40. You then dial up loco 456 and start it running at speed step 90. Now you switch back to loco 123, without touching the knob. What happens? With the Zephyr and the UT4 throttles with potentiometers, loco 123 will gradually speed up to step 90. With the DT throttles with encoders, neither loco will change speed.
This is pretty much the same across all systems depending on the type of control they use. It can’t be helped to change the speed if the knob is a potentiometer. Say there is a total of 320 degress of motion in the potentiometer (like MRC DC packs). If you are running a fast train with the knob turned 300 degrees, and then reselect a slower train that had the kob at 20 degrees, you can’t go much faster because the knob is already turned almost as far as it can go. And if you turn it 20 degrees lower, the train will stop yet the knob will be way over halfway turned up. The trick with a potentiometer control is to at least approximate where the knob was before selecting the previous loco. That way any speed change will be minimal.
With an encoder, you don’t have problems like this because the position of the encoder knob anywhere in 360 degrees of rotation has no bearing on the speed signal sent to the rest of the throttle circuitry. Instead, the encoder sends a number of pulses per rotation to the circuit which then translates that into the speed setting. When you select a previously running loco, the previous speed is recalled into the throttle’s processor and nothing changes until you move the encoder knob one way or the other. It’s all done int he internal programmign of the throttle - turn the encoder one way, and each pulse increments a variable in a computer program, click it the other way and it decrements the variable. The physic
If no one’s going to say anything about the Prodigy, I guess I will…
I probably wouldn’t pay the $299 MSRP for my Prodigy Advance, but you can find them on ebay for $150 and online for $199. It “remembers” six loco addresses, that you can cycle through, and has a large display with loco number and current speed setting for each loco as it is selected. It has a tethered walk around cab with memory when unplugged, and is expandable with many throttles, and a booster. I have run five engines simultaneously, and stopped because I couldnt keep track of them.
Programming some common complex cv values is also simplified. This is not usually discussed, but on some systems you must reference a matrix chart and convert binary numbers to decimal in order to program them. The PA has a semi-menu driven programming interface that prompts for decimal values of common complex cvs like accel and decel momentum, four digit address and start/top voltage. These were all factors in my decision making process, and to me it just added up this way. I also liked the throttle design better. I’ve already added a second throttle and built my own extension panels from CAT5 cable. The new ads in MR also say that the PA is upgradeable to computer interface and wireless. Not huge on my list, but a plus anyway.
I have had only one problem that has occured once in about a year. I unplugged a throttle, and plugged it back in before it has “saved”. The throttle stuck on the save display, and I had to unplug it again, and let it clear the screen to fix it. The only complaint I have is that you must unplug to save or the memory “stack” will revert to what was in it at last power down. Not a big deal either. I have had no other problems operating, reading, or programming NCE, QSI, LokSound, Soundtraxx, MRC, or Bachmann decoders.
Speaking of MRC decoders, I don’t understand this, but even though I am very happy with the PA and it’s quality and performance, their
Thank you all for the advice. Sorry I haven’t been clear. I’d like to be able to run two locomotives at different speeds, then start a third at 0. Then move back and forth between them all–at different speeds–without them jerking and moving really fast or slamming on the brakes. Is this possible? With the Bachmann, I can trick it a bit and select a number that has no locomotive assigned, move the throttle to 0, and then start up a new one.
One last question: What is a DT throttle? Sounds like that is what I want, right?
If that’s the case, then you want either the Digitrax Zephyr, the MRC Prodigy (Advance or Express), or the NCE Powerhouse Pro. Anyone know what the stack limit is of either the Lenz or EasyDCC systems?
The DT throttle is a Digitrax product and can only be used with and on one of their DCC systems.
I said DT throttle because over the years Digitrax has produced several throttles with 'DT" in the name that all use encoders and all work the same wway when it comes to recalling an already running loco. The current model is the DT400, by FAR the easiest to use even if it looks complicated because of all the buttons. Previous models like the DT100 and DT300 hadfewer buttons but this required pressing shift or function keys to access things since each button had to do multiple things.
This compares with the UT series of utility throttles, the UT4 being the current production model. It uses a potentiometer knob, and so must speed match when selecting a different loco. The UT4 is designed more as a device for a single operator to run a single train, not switch back and forth between different trains. And it can ONLY control speed, direction, and functions. It does not allow operation of stationary decoders.
But Tom, you started out with 1.7 amps. If you add a 3-amp booster, shouldn’t you end up with 4.7 amps? You’re losing more than half of that SB3’s capacity as soon as you plug it in! Okay, maybe that’s only one step back and two forward.