Yesterday I saw an Amtrak train diverge from the Michigan Line at Porter, Indiana, heading westbound. The signal for the train when it diverged from the line was r/r/g, which I interprete as slow clear (or something similar). This CP 482.
The first signal west of the junction is CP 483 and the single was g (proceed) … single signal head.
The Amtrak passed me at a speed of 20-30mph and stayed at that approx speed approaching the next signal.
Here is my question…I understand the signal off of the Michigan line gave a diverging indication and probably also a speed indication (slow clear). The next signal (on the NS mainline) showed a proceed (green). At what point can the engineer upgrade the speed from slow clear to proceed (30mph to 79 mph)?
I assume the engineer was observing the last signal it passed and was thus proceeding under signal authority…correct?
In addition to just signal indications, there are myriad of other directives that crews must comply with in the operation of their trains - directives that a railfan most likely will not know about on a day to day, hour to hour basis.
Understood…I am listening to the dispatchers tonight issue a ton of “mandatory directives” based on weather (flash flood), crossing malfunctions, and other typical issues.
My question is when (normally) can a train upgrade it’s speed after a more restrictive signal? Would that be at the time of passing the more permissive signal?
R/R/G is slow clear which means slow speed (20 mph) through interlocking, then clear beyond. So, theoretically, he can speed up once the train clears the plant. I’ll have to see if the timetable says anything special about Porter and/or Amtrak trains.
Even though Porter is all ex-NYC territory, there may be a change in the cab signal system from Amtrak’s ACSES to the older NYC system for westbound trains. If that’s the case, the cab signals may be cut out for a couple of minutes. In that case the second paragraph of rule 287 Slow Clear (r/r/g) applies: “In CSS territory with fixed signals, trains not equipped with operative cab signals must approach the next signal at medium speed once they have left the interlocking limits.”
A signal indication controls the length of the block it protects. Go into a block on a yellow and you must stay at the required speed until entering the next block…if it is red, you stop, if it is yellow you proceed at restricted speed, if green you proceed at track speed. However, a dispatcher might, on the books or off the books, give you permission to achieve track speed, especially if he has traffic he wants to keep moving as quickly as possible.
Were you in rough weather yesterday, Ed? I’ll bet you would be today.
The “Slow” part of that “Slow Clear” indication applies just at the control point. But, as others have said, there are a number of other things that could come into play.
Maybe they were just catching their breath after that 110-mph dash from Kalamazoo…or New Buffalo…or Michigan City.
No mine! You have to comply with the indication. Some indications have “do not exceed medium speed” or some such, but it’s certainly not universal. You enter a block on an approach and the next signal “improves” to clear while you are in the block, you can accelerate back toward track speed right away. Just don’t get caught “riding the approach” of the train ahead!
Ed’s “slow clear” is a home signal indication. It’s explicit on the slow speed until the train clears the plant, then clear on the other side.
What Ed observed was more likely the result of the change from ITCS operation to plain old rule 261 operation, although there’s nothing about it in the NS rule book or timetable that I can find.
Could be something like that, although the Amtrak territory is ITCS not ACSES and NS is just garden variety rule 261- no cab or ATS system of any kind…
On re-reading the OP, I note that the “slow clear” and the “clear” were a mere mile apart. Given time/distance to ensure that the train is clear of the interlocking, and the time it will generally take a train to get up to speed, it might seem like the train was lollygagging, but it was probably business as usual.
IIRC, NORAC says you can “obey” a less restrictive signal as soon as you can see it, so if you can see green, you can go.
If the signal entering the block controls the block to the next signal then it stands to reason that a speed restriction indicated by the signal would be in force to the end of the block. Also a DIB…delayed in block…rule would not be necessary nor considered. In fact, following some of the comments here, if one entered a block with a restricted signal, a stop could mean with the elapsed time the next signal could be considered to have cleared so that track speed could be attained after the stop. There is no safety in sense like that. As far as operating in a restricted block when the next signal appears more favorable, the only thing I find is that the train can increase speed only if it is reflected in cab signals. SO…I think, absent absolute authority by rule or by law, and considering the safest course must be taken, that there is a lot left to interpretation if only for this discussion.
Yesterday…not so bad, but today was a little rough westbound thru Gary on the way to Chicago. Traffic slowed to about 30mph on the Indiana Toll Road, except for a couple of cowboys. I had to detour a little on the South Side as 47th Street was closed near Racine due to floooding. Got out of city asap and back to the Hoosier Land.
A little more clarification on the original post. I was headed to the office yesterday and crossed the Michigan Line tracks and noted the slow clear signal. Then, when parked at the office (adjacent to the NS line), I noted the clear signal and then the Amtrak passed at pretty slow speed. The distance from the original signal to junction with NS is about 1/4 mile then straight west past where I was and the next signal.
I was just curious as to why the train didnt get up to speed quicker, as it was at least 1/2 mile from the junction to my location.
All this signal and rule talk is pretty interesting.
Our rules used to read something like the way Henry is saying. If you entered a block on an approach, you couldn’t pick up speed (30mph) until you passed the next governing signal. Even if it was seen to be more favorable than an approach. That was changed a few years back. Now we can comply with a more favorable signal as soon as it’s seen, unless the previous signal (or some other rule) requires restricted speed.
Larry, I’m pretty sure they could get up to track speed pretty quickly there if they wanted to. I’ve seen 'em do it, with only one unit. Nowadays, the Michigan trains have two units, and they’re both working in the high-speed territory.
Sort of related to this topic, I think that one of the best things they could do to CP 482 is somehow upgrade that curve so the “slow clear” could become a “medium clear”. Don, I know a Slow Clear knocks you down to 20, but do you show an even more severe restriction on that curve for Amtrak trains (or would that be purely in an Amtrak TT?)?
I would be so excited to see anything done on this line to improve the speed or reliability, or make NS more willing to accommodate some extra schedules!
Depends on the railroad. On some railroads, it’s a “slow approach”, so it’s Slow Speed through the interlocking (control point, nowadays), then prepared to stop, not exceeding Medium Speed.
On others, this is a Restricting signal, so you’d be at Restricted Speed through the entire block.
The difference is what caused (IIRC) the westbound Pere Marquette to wind up on top of a NS stack train a few years back, just beyond Englewood. The engineer interpreted the red-over-yellow as an Approach of some sort, and it turned out to be Restricting…the freight showed up a block sooner than the engineer had been anticipating.
My employer is about 1/2 mile west of CP482, just past the I94 overpass. I come into work thru Chesterton, Porter, then cross the tracks by the church/graveyard and park by the tracks. Convenient location without worrying about trespassing on the NS. Quite often they will park a John Deere/Case train in there on the Porter remote siding. Those trains are probably the most interesting train on the NS as opposing trains must reduce speed since these are dimensional loads.
NS runs these trains as unit trains and often these trains only move a few miles at a time. But, that is another thread.
BTW, the busy Burns Harbor yard is just a couple more miles west at CP485/CP487, so perhaps that was why the train was moving slowly.
NS is doing quite a bit of work on this section from Gary all the way to Porter and east past Chesterton to accomodate the Amtrak and make it more efficient. No way they could reduce that curve without taking out half of Porter, including a couple of bars.
You mean the curve from the Amtrak line to the NS Chicago Line? That would be on the Amtrak TT.
There has to be some funky “cutting out the ITCS equipment” thing in the Amtrak TT, as well, that’s keeping the speed down after the train clears the interlocking. I can’ t imagine what the reason would be, though.