OK, this is somethig I’ve not understood. I’m not bashing, just asking.
We’ve been talking about perishable freight like lettuce. Where lettuce is grown, as in Salinas, CA to where it is consumed, as in the New York area, is around 3,000 miles. (It’s just an example! Please don’t get excited and tell me you eat lettuce in Colorado.)
To make that in three days a train would have to average 42 MPH. What’s the big deal? It doesn’t have to be a “clear the tracks, get everything out of the way, thing”. It just has to keep moving. At some points along the way it will be able to run at 70 MPH, and at some points less. But why can’t the BNSF/UP/CSX/NS put a train through from Salinas to New York at 42 MPH?
Now there’s a reason the railroads aren’t doing that. What is that reason?
An average speed of 42 MPH cross-country is close to passenger-train speeds. Maintaining a top speed of 70 MPH on a road like the BNSF Transcon or parts of the Overland Route is no problem but terminal congestion and delays, even for a through train, are going to bring that average speed way down. Assuming that Chicago would be the interchange point between east and west, the timing would have to be almost perfect to get a train from UP to CSX with minimal delay. The IHB/B&OCT or the BRC does not have a lot of excess capacity, if any.
It’s not a lot different than taking a cross country trip in your personal vehicle. You may be running 70 on the highway, but you have to figure in fuel, food, and comfort stops.
Running straight through at 70 for 24 hours nets you 1680 miles. But stopping for three meals at a half hour each, plus another half hour for comfort stops and fuel stops drops that to 1540 miles, or a little under 65 mph average. Throw in six hours for sleep and you’re down to 45 mph for the day.
And that doesn’t include slowdowns for traffic around cities and construction.
Here’s another example. Not all track will be double tracked. Every train you approach will need to be in a siding for you to pass. These meets can not be timed perfectly. so you either slow down or stop and wait. Also every train slower than you will need to be in a siding so you can pass so you slow down or wait. Even on double track you are faster . If there is no siding the slow train must move to the other track. The trains on the other track now have to stop too. It is impossible to time this so the lettuce never stops or even runs at full speed. The UP says their new produce unit train from WA to NY will average 25 MPH and opperate at 70 MPH every chance it gets. The above conditions are magnified when near busy areas. I hope this helps. [2c]
They get “lots” of California fresh produce on the east coast. (And more “lots” into eastern Canada.) California produces over half the fresh fruits and vegetables in the US. On average, there are over 1,300 trucks full of FF&V leaving California each day, 365 days per year.
Now some of these trucks are going up to Seattle and some are headed to Denver (it’s a Coors backhaul), but most are headed to eastern, midwestern, and southern population centers such as New York City, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis and Atlanta.
Those trucks don’t return empty to California - so that’s 2,600 freaking long haul loads per day to and from California. Five stack trains each way per day would handle it all.
The truck rates are literally negotiated on the “spot” and fluctuate with market demand. Currently the rates to New York City run between $5,700 and $6,200 per truckload. That should go up through the summer as the “soft fruit” such as cantelope is harvested, then decline through the winter.
Make no mistake about it, salads come from California.
Other states have specialties: Apples and Pears from Washington, Potatoes from Idaho, etc. But California is the major source for Fresh Fruits and Vegeatbles for the US and Canada.
Food production in the US is remarkably concentrated. Five southern states produce 58% of the Chicken, Beef production is concentrated in an area bounded by Greely, Co, Sioux City, IA and Amarillo, TX with four states, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and Texas producing over half the beef. The area bounded by Dodge City/Garden City, KS and Amarillo, TX is literally a “Beef Mine”.
As I recall (a major effort on my part), when UPS asked UP/CSX and BNSF/NS for 5th morning from LA to the New York Metro area BNSF found they could do it but they also found it was too much “clearing the tracks” to get the job done. I don’t think they even offered a price. After testing the UP jumped in and wound up having to truck the loads.
Frustrating, I agree. Seems to me that the IMX to Memphis train (50 or 51, I forget which went north and which went south) was out about 6pm for 8am arrival the next morning. 500 miles in 14 hours made the average speed just under 36MPH. That was done with a double track railroad to the Ohio River Crossing and train frequency so low as to try the patience of even the most diehard trainwatcher. (Early 1970’s era)
I’ve mentioned this before, but I have an elapsed time clock on my car which runs when the engine is running. On our annual trip to Georgia, I have not clocked more than an average of 55MPH in spite of the fact that 90% of the trip is via expressways. When the roads are relatively free of traffic I will push 10 to 15 over the speed limits of 65 or 70. Of course the exception to that is the Chicago area expressways posted at 55mph where you have to go 75 to keep up with traffic. Ahhh, for the good old days when expressways were expressways.
About lettuce shipments.Lettuce is a very perishable product. There are many ways for it to go bad. Take too long getting it to market, let it get out of temperature range, real east to go bad. The only thing worse in this category is strawberries, in addition to to temperature range strawberries are very sensitive to rough handling, and the temperature must not vary wildly.
The real problem railroads would have getting back into this end of produce is shippers have long memories of RR foulups. In addition trucking operations have become a lot more reliable and consistant.
The good news is that 1.The people who dealt with railroads are retiring. 2.Some of the traffic lanes have got so much volume that more capacity is needed.
The problem with 1(above) is that the new generation is seeing RR’s being very inconsistant. and with 2(above) is the RR’s are not releasing capacity to produce.
One other problem with RR operations is this. Many times when product is getting picked it rains. This slows down the harvest process. And what was supposed to be ready at 10am is still not to the coolers by 12 Midnite. Now you’ve missed todays train. Etc Etc.
Drivers just make adjustments. You can do this when you many trucks(and lots of drivers) and are willing to pay for this. What about todays train that is now departing with 60 less loads? or do you delay the train ?
Rgds IGN
They get “lots” of California fresh produce on the east coast. (And more “lots” into eastern Canada.) California produces over half the fresh fruits and vegetables in the US. On average, there are over 1,300 trucks full of FF&V leaving California each day, 365 days per year.
Now some of these trucks are going up to Seattle and some are headed to Denver (it’s a Coors backhaul), but most are headed to eastern, midwestern, and southern population centers such as New York City, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis and Atlanta.
Those trucks don’t return empty to California - so that’s 2,600 freaking long haul loads per day to and from California. Five stack trains each way per day would handle it all.
The truck rates are literally negotiated on the “spot” and fluctuate with market demand. Currently the rates to New York City run between $5,700 and $6,200 per truckload. That should go up through the summer as the “soft fruit” such as cantelope is harvested, then decline through the winter.
Make no mistake about it, salads come from California.
Other states have specialties: Apples and Pears from Washington, Potatoes from Idaho, etc. But California is the major source for Fresh Fruits and Vegeatbles for the US and Canada.
Food production in the US is remarkably concentrated. Five southern states produce 58% of the Chicken, Beef production is concentrated in an area bounded by Greely, Co, Sioux City, IA and Amarillo, TX with four states, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and Texas producing over half the beef. The area bounded by Dodge C
…It is such a question why trains destined for the east coast area can’t be routed as suggested above…around Chicago. If Chicago wasn’t there would the rail traffic not make it to the east…? Just seems silly to be bogged down in confusion and quagmire getting transferred through that area. One would think hours upon hours could be gained by going south or where ever to eliminate Chicago with shipments destined for the east coast.
UP and CN as well as BNSF and CN have routing agreements that take them around Chicago as much as possible so the hand-off point of the train is much faster. This is making operations more efficent, and they are sticking with it.
UP or BNSF and CSX or NS can move traffic through St. Louis.
Can we hear from St. Louis?
That is still complex, but it is less difficult than Chicago.
Something else that slows trains down is the speed at which cars are rated to go. As far as I understand it, older perishable cars aren’t rated to go 70mph.
The TP&W is a mystery to me. Why don’t railroads us the Tip-Up as a Chicago bypass? I suppose it has to do with money, a lack of a solid eastern connection and the way that the BNSF Illinois operations are setup among a other possible things. Galesburg, IL is now the main hub and current TP&W operations have trains going to Galesburg, not Ft Madison, IA. To keep this short, the original TP&W main goes from nowhere to nowhereand needs upgrades that financially doesn’t make sense to any of the Class I’s at this time.
Jee Whiz!
Food is grown everywhere and consumed close to home markets.
Just because the celophane wrapper on your fresh produce says Tarrantula/Antlia of Salinas CA. does not mean it is grown there.
Lord help me I have chores to get back to this afternoon.
first thing is that the fra sets forth rules and the first one is brake testing a train that will run 1,000 miles will have all cars tested and inspected. so this will be at least 4 test and inspections of the train. depending on who does it and how fast they are this can be hours. and dont bring anything thru st.louis its is very difficult to get thru here.
I would’ve thought that the Kankakee Belt would be a much better alternative to the TP&W. I have no idea how much traffic currently runs on either line, but judging by the condition I last saw both of those lines in, the Kankakee Belt (NS) is in MUCH better shape. Also without having to navigate through Peoria and up and down to and crossing the Illinois River. Just make the turn at Streator and floor it for either coast.
They get “lots” of California fresh produce on the east coast. (And more “lots” into eastern Canada.) California produces over half the fresh fruits and vegetables in the US. On average, there are over 1,300 trucks full of FF&V leaving California each day, 365 days per year.
Now some of these trucks are going up to Seattle and some are headed to Denver (it’s a Coors backhaul), but most are headed to eastern, midwestern, and southern population centers such as New York City, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis and Atlanta.
Those trucks don’t return empty to California - so that’s 2,600 freaking long haul loads per day to and from California. Five stack trains each way per day would handle it all.
The truck rates are literally negotiated on the “spot” and fluctuate with market demand. Currently the rates to New York City run between $5,700 and $6,200 per truckload. That should go up through the summer as the “soft fruit” such as cantelope is harvested, then decline through the winter.
Make no mistake about it, salads come from California.
Other states have specialties: Apples and Pears from Washington, Potatoes from Idaho, etc. But California is the major source for Fresh Fruits and Vegeatbles for the US and Canada.
Food production in the US is remarkably concentrated. Five southern states produce 58% of the Chicken, Beef production is concentrated in an area bounded by Greely, Co, Sioux City, IA and Amarillo, TX with four states, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and Texas producing over half the beef. The area bounded by Dodge C
It is good to discuss food products without getting involved with the wheat harvest.
I see a few points here to discuss:
Averaging 42mph point to point has been discussed and would be difficult. The problem that I see is the lack of volume to make this a SOLID point to point train. I dont know how many cars would be required to make this work, but assuming it would be 75 or so…that is a lot of produce. Does the east coast consume that much daily? Dont know. So, in order to get to a quantity of cars that would work, you have to build trains…which slows down the process.
Chicago is a big consumer of produce. Most of it is trucked into the markets there. Wild place on the south side, now converted to condos!
TPW at this time would not be a viable option. First, the NS line out of KC is superior. Why involve the TPW when it could be handed off at KC? Second NS crews at Peru, so Logansport would involve a crew for a short run. I suppose a pool crew could be set up. Third…the TPW west of Peoria is a mess and would involve investments to get it running at track speed. As stated, TPW runs into and out of Galesburg.
Kankakee Belt seems like a line that could have and should have been a contender! And it might still. My guess is that in 10 years there will be some serious traffic on it. But…the “exit” at Streator is quite a curve. If that could be taken care of, I dont see any reason why that line couldnt be utilized. There is plenty of room for sidings and on the east side it could provide access to CSX.
Has the former NYC line from Porter, IN to Joliet, IL, most of it abandoned, been built-on to the point that it couldn’t rise again? It would connect BNSF and CSX/NS more directly than the Kankakee Belt.
Couldn’t UP at Sparks, NV or BNSF at Bakersfield (or Barstow), CA have these shipments put on trains, and make hay with them to Chicago where they could pretend they’re through passenger trains in the middle of the night, and CSX or NS could roll them to Albany, NY or Harrisburg, PA or Ohio? Or maybe rail just to west of Chicago, and truck from there? The trucks could be triangulated at both ends for backhauls? That would be using the linehaul speed and efficiencies where the rails have an advantage, and leave the endpoint complexities for the trucks to handle?
One thing that gets overlooked in the perishables business.
A lot of the shipments that are tendered on the West Coast do not have a firm buyer on the East Coast - the shipment are consigned to the Shippers Account… The Shippers play the perishables markets and then sell the shipments that enroute to the highest bider. There is a high level of ‘reconsignment and diversion’ that takes place in the perishable business.
As I read all of these posts I recalled that Trains had an article not too long ago reviewing the economics of such a train. You have all mostly concentrated on moving the train carrying the produce faster, and some have mentioned the fact that in single track territory (and double track, too) other trains had to be in the siding or otherwise out of the way.
THAT is where the cost is that makes super fast freights un-economic to the railroed. The extra revenue from the faster train does not compensate for the extra time/crew/capacity costs of putting all of those other trains in the siding. Wish I could remember when the article was, but I think the the discussion was ablout the fast UPS train that was run several years ago.