this is really scraping th bottom, but…
are spring frogs still used much? are they designed to protect wheels or the frog from wear & tear? are they used on commuter lines such as lirr, septa, etc., or just freight?
Why do you say it’s scraping the bottom? When I left the employ of CN a while back, we were still using spring frogs. They are a horrible maintenance headache, and a bear to inspect (the parts that break and derail trains are the parts you can’t see…). However, we at least used them on a lot of main line territory where there was high-speed running and large number frogs (say roughly 15 and up). The reason we used them, in spite of the hassles, is that in large number frogs the gap in the rail between the point of the frog and where the tread of the wheel is picked up by the stock rail/wing rail is quite long, but if you have a spring frog the gap is closed by the wing rail being held against the frog, making a smooth ride with no gap for the normal (straight) direction – thus saving impact damage and wheel wear. The diverging direction was never sprung – but speeds are at least supposed to be low over the diverging route, so impact wasn’t such a hassle.
We had at least a few places with powered (!) frogs – mostly slip switches or low angle crossings, but a few very high speed crossovers on the Montreal-Toronto main line (100 mph plus running).
The BNSF has installed spring frogs in our yard. I have been waiting for something to fall into the frog preventing it from springing to it’s normal position. With hand throw switches the last guy to throw the switch inspected the points and power switches will not lock if the points have something lodged in them. With a spring frog the last thing to move it was the wheel of a car or locomotive and it would be hard to spot a spring frog lodged open. The gap made by having something stuck in the frog would make it look a lot like a normal frog when looked at from a distance.
OH GREAT!!! What do you have against FRENCH people now??
I’m kidding…
it’s alright… it was a joke.
make you a deal, next time i’m buy the train, i’ll have a look and see, i never actually noticed before. But i will check it out.
jchnhtfd,
by scraping the bottom, i meant i cant think of questions that interest me…
why are frogs difficult to maintain? isnt it just a couple of springs pushing against the rail? dont they just need grease to stay loose? why would they break up and leave fragments in the flange path? if they are taking more abuse than they were designed for, couldn’t a speed restriction be set?
*pfrench68,
what is a power frog?
im confused–you refer to frogs, hand-thrown & power switches, and inspecting switch points…
i have watched conductors use these devices and have watched spring frogs and spring switches work… i dont follow the link between frogs & switches…
please clarify…
Both switches and spring frogs have a gap that may prevent them from operating properly if debris would fall in the gap. Switches have a safeguard in the way they operate. Spring frogs are not inspected on each use or have a track circuit to make sure if proper alignment.
I don’t remember mentioning a power frog. I have seen a power frog that was associated with a power switch on the Indiana Harbor in Chicago. I suspect they are rare.
my mistake,
the question should have been directed to jchnhtfd…
so, anybody know from power frogs? do they come with power steering, windows, brakes?
Yeah, Cab. Power frogs are like Toads, but have tilt, a/c and power windows…Hehe. Power frogs are also known as moveable point or swingnose frogs. There is a switch machine to move the point of the frog as well as the switch (one machine for each). If you take the switch on hand you will also have to take the motor for the frog on hand as well and throw it. Very expensive and very smooth. My 2 cents on springfrogs…The company that I worked for before I sold my soal produced springfrogs (Racor brand). They are a female dog to build and are designed for high mainline traffic areas with the turnout being used considerably less. Something like 75% mainline use and 25% turnout use. These guys have splained the springfrog pretty well here. You won’t usually see them on crossovers and high traffic sidings where the turnout gets used as much as the main. Where you do see alot of them is in industrial spurs where the turnout traffic is not as high. They are alot smoother than an RBM (railbound manganese) frog as was allready stated due to no gap between the wingrail and the point.
Ken
Spring frogs are making a comeback (renaissance frogs?), especially the past 3 years. The high tonnanage lines were destroying RBM and rigid frogs at a frightening rate (or was it that the railroads ran out of folks willing to be welders?)…UP’s and BNSF’s transcons are full of moveable point/swingnose frogs, complete with signs that identify them as such…IronKen: ABC before or after Meridian? (If Webber joints come back to compliment the spring frogs, I will never come closer than the R/W fence to a track again!!!.)
Fact: Spring frogs have horns as standard equipment. Tilt, AC, AM/FM and power windows must be optional (?)
Mudchicken
I knew that you would respond to this one Mud. I came along during the ABC years. I quit when Meridian came in and *** on the company. After Meridian took over, our contract was null (no successor clause) and the scabs rolled in. About half of us left and a new contract was signed at about a 4-9 $hr loss. I was just in Newton, Ks. and seen the Meridian plant there while I was yarding my train. They kept their wages when the evil Meridian took over. Progress will put them in the dirt with their substandard quality and lower prices. Sorry, sore subject!
Ken
Had to ask, have to figure out the relationship. Was going to ask if the old Santa Fe frog & special trackwork shop at Newtron fit in there. Go by the old ABC facility at CF&I in Pueblo regularly and wonder what happened there - assume the french did the same thing there. No need to apologize.
mudchicken
Yeah, Mud, I think that the 'ol Santa Flush shop was purchased in the Abex or early ABC days. When you drive by the ABC plant in Pueblo now, you hardly see any activity there after 4:00p. We used to work tons of O/T, 3 shifts 7 days a week. Man it was beautiful! Now, first shift only (I think) and very few weekends. 80% of our work was for the Yellow boys, and the plant scoffed at BN stuff. Now it is mostly BN. In the early 90’s they pissed off the Eastern roads. The management thought that they had the market cornered with a “take it, or leave it attitude.” Now they are begging for orders and 'ol Uncle Pete is shifting their orders to Progress Scab rail. That place used to be able to make a guy a good living and was fun to work at. Get off at 10:00 (if you werent on O/T) and go across the hiway to the Beer Barrel and throw dice after work. Not any more! The guys that went back are scraping to make ends meet. Meridian really made things better. “Meridian,” sounds like a phone company name, not a trackproducts manufacturer.
later, Ken
CTM looking better all the time.
If an electric train is heading north, which way would the steam be coming out?
The answer is which ever way the wind is blowing.
KevTheRRman:
Please have a talk with Mr. dehusman here. Somebody isn’t going to get to that second star if we’re already “fresh out” of original thoughts. The tree still fell in the woods even though nobody heard it and Louisville isn’t the capital of Kentucky either…[xx(]
mudchicken
okay,
power frogs are also known as moveable point or swingnose frogs…<
good try, but i need it dumbed-down one more step…
is that where the switch turns on a swivel? the flangepath is open in whatever way the switch is turned… the flangepath for the other direction is closed…
model trains used this in the 70s…
Hey, I was just replying to the question on kevinstheRRman’s post of Posted: 24 Sep 2003, 03:06:28 PM.
The steam would blow the direction of the wind. If you don’t believe that then you haven’t spent much time around electric engines. Electric passenger engines (GG1, E60) have steam generators which vent out the top. I have pictures of electric engines blowing a 50 foot column of steam out the top of them (in the direction of the wind).
Cabbo:
A frog is where two rails cross each other. (The proper name for a railroad diamond is a crossing frog / actually 4 frogs)…Moveable point frogs are connected by steel bar linkage to the same mechanism that moves the switch points. Moveable point frogs cover up the flangeway gap in the frog that is most of the source of the “banging” when a train goes over the switch. Hopefully regular split-point switches are not getting confused with stub switches here.
MC
Kensington Junction in Chicago (CSS&SB-IC) has movable point frogs on the crossings where the South Shore Line crosses over the IC freight main. No switches are involved on some of the diamonds but it is part of an interlocking that has some double slip switches.
Tru-Scale, as I recall. I still have a bunch in the attic somewhere. No, on the 1:1 lines we’re talking about here (and we are all talking split point switches, not stub!) the whole switch assembly doesn’t move… if it’s a facing point switch, you first would come to the regular point or switch rails, which cause the train (you hope) to take one track or the other. Then there are the stock rails. However, one of the stock rails has to cross the other at the frog. With spring frogs, the frog has one moveable wing rail on springs. With power or swingnose frogs, the point of the frog or one (or both) of the wing rails is moved by a switch machine to close the gap in the stock rail being used. Much more reliable than a plain spring frog. Much more complicated.
That help?