St. Louis proposes law to restrict spray paint - combat graffiti

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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This is sort of OT, but St. Louis is proposing restrictions on the sale and possesion of spray paint, the type that is used to commit graffit on railroad property. Apparently the idea is that restricting the possession of spray paint will curtail graffiti. Similar to the restriction of firearms in many large municipalities. Whether this kind of law will prevent most graffiti on trains in unknown?

Paintless in St. Louis? St. Louis Alderwoman Donna Baringer wants to treat cans of spray paint like they’re handguns.

Motorists driving down Highway 40 under Tamm Avenue in the wee hours of July 19, 2007, reported seeing graffiti artists at work on the pristine white concrete of the overpass wall. Before fleeing the scene, the men left their trademarks, or tags, in big bubble letters. St. Louis police later caught two suspects north of the highway, and they also found backpacks loaded with sixteen cans of spray paint. Both men were charged with felony property damage. The incident set off alarm bells for south St. Louis Alderwoman Donna Baringer, who says she realized that the new overpasses and noise barriers going up along Highway 40 will be a prime target for vandals.

“Those walls will be seen as empty canvases to do artistic work,” says Baringer, who serves the 16th Ward. “But we will have to have it removed and the state — us taxpayers — will end up paying for it.”

After doing some research into the world of graffiti, Baringer learned that the ornate, multicolored art is known as tagging and that its renegade practitioners tend to be 18- to 25-year-old white men.

Baringer maintains that the best way to stop them is to enact legislation that will basically treat spray paint and markers like weapons: restricting who ca

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There is one word to describe this…IDIOTIC.

“After doing some research into the world of graffiti, Baringer learned that the ornate, multicolored art is known as tagging and that its renegade practitioners tend to be 18- to 25-year-old white men.” It took you RESEARCH to figuire that out???

“Motorists driving down Highway 40 under Tamm Avenue in the wee hours of July 19, 2007, reported seeing graffiti artists at work on the pristine white concrete of the overpass wall. Before fleeing the scene, the men left their trademarks, or tags, in big bubble letters.” It’s too bad those concerned citizens did nothing but call the cops…(also, what did the city expect to see on the WHITE concrete overpass??)

“Is it going to stop [graffiti] or end it or eliminate it? No,” she says." Than what the heck is the point??

“The most common approach, he says, is to ban spray-paint sales to anyone under 18 and keep it under lock and key.” So, the only people that tag are under 18?? No. Plenty of “grown up and mature adults” tag buildings and railroad cars. The 18 year or older people will just sell it to the younger crowd, if they indeed are the only ones that tag.

“The core of the bill deals with “graffiti tools,” which includes spray paint, paint sticks, fat-tipped markers and glass-etching devices. The bill bans sales to anyone under 18, and requires adults who want to buy three or more of the blacklisted implements to present a photo ID.” Role play. If I am, let’s say, 21, and have a business that requires me to use red krylon, and there is a rash of grafitti in St. Louis that involes red paint, why should I be a suspect? They have that record there that I bought all of it.

I refer to the single word for this bill above.

Phil, once again angry that the world is so bra

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They banned it in Chicago decades ago but it didn’t do any good.

Graffiti “artistes” can cross suburban boundaries just like you and me!

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Good points WGNRR.

I like this comparison.

“After doing some research into the world of graffiti, Baringer learned that the ornate, multicolored art is known as tagging and that its renegade practitioners tend to be 18- to 25-year-old white men.”

“The bill bans sales to anyone under 18, and requires adults who want to buy three or more of the blacklisted implements to present a photo ID.”

Hmmmm. So let me get this straight, "The bill bans sales to anyone under 18" and “renegade practitioners tend to be 18- to 25-year-old”. I think both the Titanic and the iceberg she hit could fit through that microscopic loophole. It’s a wonder Jay Lenno isn’t reading this on his Monday night Headlines.

Sorry, but the effect it will have on RR car graffiti will be virtually none. Why? RR cars are not restricted to travel only within the city are they? The graffiti on walls will most likely be effected if this feel good law has any effect on the problem at all. Laws like this, in reality, only effect the people who obey the laws. A person who goes out and willingly trespasses, vandalizes and probably st

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The city of Stockton passed the toughest anti-graffiti law in the State of California several months ago. Persons witnessing others painting graffiti can receive a thousand dollar reward if they report it and the culprits are caught. In the first few months it has surprised everyone how well it has actually worked. For the perps that are caught there parents can be fined up to thirty thousand dollars.

The first juvenile caught had been responsible for graffiti all over the south end of the city. The pasrents were fined the maximum 30,000.00 and will probably have to remortgage there house to pay for it. The sixteen year old will report to work every mon-fri to the graffiti removal service for his entire summer vaction and each day he shows up and works at removing graffiti his parents fine will be reduced by fifty dollars.

One eighteen year old had his car siezed and since he works 1/3 of his pay each week will go to pay his eighteen thousand fine.

Two other juveniles have been ordered to spend there summers removing graffiti and there parents fines will also be reduced by 50.00 dollars per day. The parents in those cases fines were both under twenty thousand.

I forgot to mention the juveniles are also on probation and are not allowed outside there homes after 7:00 PM for two years. They must attend school during the school season and can not been seen with others convicted of graffiti violations.

The ACLU is screaming and threatening to challenge the graffiti ordinance in court. I say lets paint the ACLU red and get rid of them once and for all.

Al

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I am amazed that people get so righteous and indignant about graffiti and yet don’t say a word about all the bajillion advertisements that invade every square inch of our world. You can’t go anywhere, sit anywhere, be anywhere without being constantly bombarded by advertisements for some stupid thing or other. Personally, I’d rather look at the graffiti-- at least IT is interesting.

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Well here all spray paint has to be either behind the counter or locked in cases, IDing is required, and alot of the other stuff suggested is already being done here…net result, graffiti is more a problem than ever, nothing works, fines, nope, jail time, nope, banning paints, nope, as far as I can tell the only solution is to start getting Islamic on these punks and start lopping off fingers for each conviction…its only way I can see to get the idea thru that solid lump of concrete these punks they call their brains.

Yeah yeah I know, some here are going to be outraged, well too bad cuase my patience is gone with taggers! These kids for the most part are hard core punks who deserve neither praise nor symapthy, several people here have been shot and killed confrontiong taggers, so I say treat them the same way they treat everyone else.

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Advertising is legal. Graffitti isn’t. It’s as simple as that. I don’t like billboards everywhere either but I can’t stand graffitti. Everytime I go to L.A. I can’t believe how horrible that city is. It’s the filthiest place I have ever seen anywhere and I’ve been to middle of nowhere Asia. Much of the perceived dirtiness of that city is the excessive graffitti. Vandals hit places before construction is even completed on it. It’s horrible.

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The simple answer is, THE GOLDEN RULE. Remember that, or is it illegal to teach that to kids anymore? Treat others as you would want them to treat you. Ask yourself, who’s property is it on and did they approve it being there? A person can’t put up just any billboard, advertisement or structure. In the United States of America, people are allowed to have what is called private property. The people who complain about others private property are usually he kind who don’t want to work for what they want. There are codes, laws and buracracies to contend with to try and do what they want on a square of dirt they may have worked their a$$ off to get. So yea, I’d say a person has the right to “get so righteous and indignant about graffiti” or anything else that they did not approve of having on their private property. If you like graffiti do it to our own property. I do.

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Advertising is legal because people don’t object to it.

I am not enamored of graffiti-- nor do I espouse it-- but I really don’t like being “advertised at” everywhere I am in MY world, which I of course I am sharing with the rest of y’all who mistakenly consider it YOUR world-- ya know? I just want to know who made it THEIR world that they get to cover every blessed inch of the planet (and beyond) with advertising? Which, in my NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION, is JUST as bad as having to stare at the graffiti.

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That of course is true-- I am not saying that vandalism should be legal or even permitted-- but was saying that in my view, advertising is much the same-- it invades and permeates nearly every segment of our waking moments-- I don’t recall being asked if I wanted my world junked-up with advertising-- do you? And its not just a matter of private property. You can’t grow certain plants on your property without a visit from the police and probably some time in the pokey to boot. You can’t paint your house pink and purple without a visit from the homeowner’s assoc-- even though you’ll point out that was an “agreement”, it really isn’t because, ya know, where else are you gonna go? Not that I’m saying I really want to paint my house purple and pink, only that at some point, its no longer a face-value agreement but a collective strong-arm tactic that you are pretty-much forced to “agree to” or else you can’t live anywhere. Even if its not against the HOA regs, you can’t pile tires and old cars on your private property (again, not that I’d really want to) because you run afoul of the city or county regs.

So it really isn’t all that private and you really can’t do whatever you want on it-- so as far as I’m concerned, all those people polluting the planet with never-ending advertising can take a brisk, long walk off a very short plank.

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jwhitten, do you own your own home or property? If so, why do you make others look at such positions that we may find objectionable to look at? Should the owner of the house you reside in have to demolish it because someone doesn’t like it? Why did they have the right to build a house there in the first place? Why do YOU post your comments (advertising YOUR thoughts at us) making everyone on the planet and beyond look at it. You aren’t SHARING YOUR world with the rest of us if you are imposing YOUR wishes on what YOU would want us to do with our own private property. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, if you don’t like it perhaps there are other countries you could live that do without it that you’d be more happier living in.

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Our condo complex was covered with graffiti, we solved the problem, our board took cans of paint and sprayed lines through the middle of each tag, this in essence ‘‘destroys’’ the tag, they will not try to fix the original tag but add a new one to the area, we sprayed the new tag also, this happened 3 times, they finally gave up, we cleaned the graffiti and have had no new ones in 2 years. I assume they moved on to some one else’s property, perhaps yours ? ?

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Actually I do own my own home and property, and I go out of my way to make it look as nice as it can so the neighbors have something pleasant to look at. I post my comments because, last time I looked this is a free country and we have the right to free speech (even if nobody listens :slight_smile: I am not going out of my way to impose my wishes on your private property, rather the reverse is true-- do what you want with your private property, I don’t really care, but when you interfere with the rights of others to enjoy their property (including their personal space) that’s where it becomes a problem. Just as you wouldn’t want to look at my “pink and purple house with piles of tires and rusty cars”, I don’t really want to look at your (collective you) silly advertising. I’d rather see the mountains and the trees and the scenic sunsets but can’t because people (who think its their job to tell me what I can and can’t do on my property) have no compunctions whatsoever in spoiling it for me on mine. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness-- it goes all the way around-- why do you assume that your advertising (assuming you do it) is in the spirit of pursuing happiness while my “tires and rusty cars” are not? (assuming I had some). If you want to make a point about liberty and freedom, you must realize that it cuts both ways.

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jwhitten,

Don’t you see your irony? You are trying to tell somebody else what they can and can’t do on their private property. Perhaps your house is blocking your neighbor a view of a hill, tree or mound of dirt where that certain kind of plant once was. I don’t think your house should be built there. Tear it down and build it someplace else. You gave up a certain amount of personal freedom when you signed the homeowners ass. agreement. But I assume all the neighbors have common interests in the way they want their and other neighbors property to look. The advertisers and the rest of society didn’t sign that agreement. Are you going to tell me what hair style I should have or what kind of shirt I should wear? I find some people’s cloths annoying and offensive. IMO, it looks like some women think just because they can; buy it from the merchant, get the button to button, snap to snap and zipper to zip means it fits them. I don’t ask them out on a date. I do agree with you about excessive advertising clutter (Union Pacific colors and logos are everywhere). I fight annoying advertising by not buying that product, if I can, or contacting the the company and voice my opinion to them and others.

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Taggers are sneaky. Some do get caught, but some don’t. They will find a way to get paint reguardless of wether it is banned in some cities.

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(smile) This thread is going far afield-- you sir can have the last word. I bow to your superior intellect and sense of fair play! :slight_smile:

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That article is about the funiest thing i ever seen in my whole life. They obviously didnt do enough “research” into the graffiti world to know that the majority of good artists now are buying Montana, MTN, Belton, and Sabotaz paint. All of which arent sold in generally any american store, other than street stores or private stores. All this stuff is made in Germany, Mexico, Canada, and beyond and shipped here and sold to any person of any age through a somewhat secrative market. Sure they buy Krylon and Rustoleum when you cant get your hands on the imported stuff but you think their buyin it…heck no. They’re rackin it. Which completely eliminates a reason for this new law. I know Chicago has had this law forever and where i live too, but most of em are over 18 anyway.

…If there’s a will there’s a way. Thats how they’re still gonna get ahold of paint law or no law.

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How about this, If they catch these vandals call China and get some of those 6 ft. bamboo poles and “Cane” the *hit out of them, It may not stop it but it sure as hell will slow it down!!

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The problem I have with this law is it’s invasive of honest people’s privacy. Like I’ve said time and again if you really want to punish vandalists make them have to clean it up. No finesor restitution that momsy and dadsy will probably foot the bill for. No jail time where they’ll be sitting around playing Xbox and lifting weights all day nope. Make them have to go out and perform community service by cleaning up vandalism or replacing windows they break.