My friends, I do appreciate your input. I do need your help to accomplish my goals so keep the ideas coming please!![bow] However, I’m not wanting to purchase any more printed materials than I already have. It’s been very expensive and has led to little bits of info here and there but has most times created more questions than I already had before I got the materials[banghead].
I’m writing you today because it’s my belief most railfans are happy to share what they know about the hobby. Maybe if we all pitched together we could solve many mysteries we all have questions about. Novel idea but we all love railroads, so, why not try[8D].
Let me give you a little background of what I do know.
Up until the late 1930’s, most cars were lettered only. Most, if not all, had no logos or slogans.
This changed during the 1940’s. Logos began to appear. Some slogans and streamliner advertising was stenciled on.
Wabash always used Block “Billboard” lettering. Some roads followed suit after the 1940’s but when? I certainly do not want any rolling stock on my layout that existed after January 1, 1950.
Again, the window of time I’m wanting to model is 1938 to 1950. Nothing that existed after January 1, 1950 can be represented. I want as accurate of a display as possible.
Do you have a picture you’d share with me of a freight yard of cars that was taken between the years 1938 and December 1949? Do you know of a person who is an expert of railroad history in the 1940’s that would share some time with me online or on the phone? Do you know of a resource online that can solve any mysteries for me?
Let me give you some examples of what is causing my dilemmas:
When did the D&H begin using there round and or shield logo
on boxcars and other freight? What few pics I’ve seen from this time frame show the script lettering
only.
I hope you will forgive my response, but I really and sincerely mean this: you present a clear case for the usual advice given to new people from old-timers, and that is to narrow your interests so that you aren’t generating so many questions. You indicate, in your post above, a too-broad approach to what I sense is an intense interest in modelling details, almost trivia, that, if it is to make you happy in the hobby, should be constrained to one single solitary railroad. As you phrased your question, you are going to take the rest of your life detailing rail cars from three or four different roads. Where will you find the time to do that for engines, for the country-side modelling in the roads you mention? Which small section will you model this accurately so that it conforms to all of the roads you mention, with their infinitely varied and numerous sections from which you could chose?
You need to step back, figure out what precisely your endstate is to be, and then compile a list of ‘deliverables’ to use as a guide for your work for the next several years. I think that you have otherwise only served to confound yourself. You will be mired in trivial things that most of us would not notice unless they were pointed out by someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of any of those roads.
Wow!!! I think you set a new record for the longest question ever posted here! LOL
I appreciate you wanting to maintain authenticity on your layout with your equipment. It’s hard to do that as there are so many items that fall out of the range one can select. I try for 1950 but I can’t help but run some cars I love that came after that year. The truth is that the majority of modelers probably wouldn’t recognize that a certain paint scheme or style of lettering or logo came after 1950 or didn’t actually belong on your favorite 40’ boxcar. Within reason you should be able to carry off most things. A Conrail or BNSF hopper obviously is out of place but who’s to know if the boxcar with 9" lettering is correct vs 12" lettering?
Your many questions could probably be better answered by the various yahoo web groups for the railroads you are curious about as well as looking into the many railroad historical societies. The NMRA website has a list of a lot of these societies. A search on the yahoo site should get you hooked up with most of their groups.
Your basic premise is not accurate. From the very beginning railroads and the shippers used the sides of boxcars for advertising. The problems that caused between private shippers and the railroads got so bad that the “billboard reefers” were banned in 1933 as a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust laws. So what you are probably noticing is the legal re-emergence of slogans. Logos are a different story. They were just plain expensive to do which is why one saw fewer of them.
Check out this thread and the photo from 1905. I would guess that at least 1/3 of the cars have a logo or slogan. Especially note the bill-board reefers in lower right. http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/162942/1794690.aspx#1794690
Also note the references in the thread for photos of “older” stuff.
Well, I can help with one detail. A RR logo on a boxcar was starting to become popular around 1900.
The New Haven was using their “script” logo on freight cars by 1902 (page 541, “New Haven Power” by Jack Swanberg). I just went and looked through my copy of “The American Railroad Freight Car” by John H. White, and there were several examples of RR logos on boxcars in the 1890’s-1900’s for the SP, Mobile & Ohio, Big 4, etc. When this became more common than boxcars that were simply lettered, that I can’t say. But logo’d boxcars were not as rare as one might think in the 1930’s. In fact, by the 1940’s, logo’d boxcars were rather common. I’ve seen several WWII flicks on RR’s, and they show strings of boxcars going by with logos. The NH bought some 6000 40’ steel boxcars during WWII, and all were delivered with their script logo.
There are historical societies for most, if not all, of the almost 20 roads in which you are interested. It would be pretty expensive to join all of them, but you might want to select a couple of the most pertinent ones. For the others, you could try sending them your question, either via e-mail or in an actual letter (be sure to include a SSAE) keeping in mind that most of the members of such societies are volunteers. You may or may not get a response.
While I am not an expert on any of the roads you mention (nor any others, except those which I freelance), I will pass along the following information, taken from the C-D-S lettering catalogue. Note that the information is supposedly well-researched, but that I cannot verify it. Perhaps others will expand on it. For many roads, older-style lettering continued to be in use after new versions were introduced, often for many years.
The D&H small circular herald dates back to at least 1942, with the larger version appearing around 1956. The shield was supposedly introduced around 1964.
No ACL info shown.
I believe that the flag herald dates to Wabash control of the road - the earliest reference to it is 1950, on some covered hoppers built in 1949 and 1950 and not all received it. For boxcars, the earliest shown is 1956, although there may have been earlier ones.
No DT&I info shown.
The earliest date shown for the large B&O lettering is 1956. No info shown for the Sentinel Service cars, although the service was introduced in 1947.
No BAR info shown appropriate to your cut-off date.
No B&M info shown.
No CofG info shown.
The CNJ boxcars had some version of the lettering shown on the car below, with an indication that the Miss Liberty herald maynot have been used on boxcars before 1950 (they note that the scheme in the photo was in use, i.e. still being applied, until that date).&n
As noted earlier, though it’s true some railroads only used the RR name and/or reporting marks on cars in the teens-twenties, this was by no means an absolute rule. Many railroads used heralds (the more common RR term for a “logo”) and other lettering to cover their house cars, as did the companies that leased cars from the railroads or from other leasing companies. For example, Santa Fe’s “cross” herald was used on cars at least as far back as 1902, Great Northern’s circular “See America First” goat herald goes back to about 1922, and an early version of the rectangular “Burlington Route” herald was used in the 1880’s-90’s.
After private-leased Billboard reefers were restricted from general interchange service in the thirties, lettering did become simpler, but as someone mentioned, the railroads began to pick up the slack and use their boxcars and reefers to advertise their top passenger trains and services…“Way of the Zephyrs”, “Southern Serves The South”, “Route of the Chief” etc.
A good source for information about lettering styles from 1880-1940 is the Clover House catalogue. Other decal catalogues offer info on when the lettering styles were in use, though not all do. For a small expense you can get a lot of information. If you can find one at a flea market or online, Walther’s PLD 1 book would be a good source of info for a few dollars. It’s their first decal catalogue, issued in 1942 but reprinted at least into the 1980’s. Any car in there should be good for your pre-1950 era.
BTW “Billboard reefers” were cars that the company leasing the cars would decorate with large eye-catching lettering for their company - like a billboard advertisement. Some folks think that the RR sold the advertising space to the company, but it’s not the case. The RR
As I mentioned in another post, Branchline kits almost always state the specific date a particular paint scheme was applied to the model they are offering. Most are offered in an “as delivered” scheme, and a later repaint scheme. That would be a great place to start for some of the common prototype cars such as the 1937 AAR boxcar.
I know you said you weren’t interested in acquiring more books, but that is honestly the best way, although not completely without error.
While my interest is primarily PRR, I am also reasonably concerned about a modicum of fidelity on those foriegn road cars that coexist on my layout… To that end, I also own “color guide” style books on those roads that would have eiter had a lot of cars in general (especially in the locale I’ve selected) such as NYC and B&O, as well as those roads that were “freindly”, IE had either some PRR ownership or routing agreements, such as L&N, N&W and the like.
For me, this has turned into another enjoyable aspect of the hobby. Just a few of things I’ve learned are;
L&N didn’t use the “Dixie Line” slogan until after the acqusition of NC&StL, because it was an NC&StL slogan. I model 1948, so my L&N cars say “The Old Reliable”. Those were fun to find. Also no blue L&N boxcars.
I also learned that standardized covered hoppers were very late with regards to other types. There were standardized boxcars, open hoppers and gondolas in the 19 teens and tank cars in the 1920’s but covered hoppers were nerly all railroad spcific builds until the mid 1950s, This means I get to find interesting one road only designs like the PRR H30 (think lionel) and the B&O “wagon top”.
I’ve also started going back through my old copies of MR and RMC, and dog-earing the pages where a product review or modeling project explains which cars are correct for whic
Your questions are wayyyy too many, and frankly are “trivia” that could / should be answered by the various railroad special interest groups.
IF you are trying to get the “correct” cars for your time period, all you need to do is find a subject car, and check the build date or better put, the most recent “rebuild” date on the car. That way you will know if that paint scheme existed at the last date on the side of the car. This is not a 100% perfect rationale, but comes pretty close to it.
I urge you to check out some of the various books about the railroads you are interested in, and also join their special interest groups. And, narrow down your RR of interest to a couple, for your scope just too much.
I would assume that you want to build a layout, and being concerned about car lettering is not something that you should worry about now. Again, the build dates on the car sides will tell you if you are looking at the right time period.
LINKwill answer both above, and reinforce the first answer.
“Billboard” railcars were privately owned.
The billboard era ended in July 1934 when the Interstate Commerce Commission ruled that cars could no longer be painted with the lessee’s name any larger than 12 inches. After January 1937 billboard reefers would no longer be accepted for interchange between railroads.
Actually, there are lots of model railroad cars available that are incorrectly lettered, although the situation is gradually improving. An example of such a car would be one with a BLT. date of 11-38, and the notation, next to the dimensional data, of “NEW”, followed by 11-38, but with the car sporting a paint scheme first applied in 1949. For a boxcar, that “NEW” would be on this car only for about 30 months, or until about May of 1940, at which time it would be re-weighed (NEW refers only to the weights indicated by LD.LMT.- load limit, and LT.WT. - light or empty weight), and re-stencilled with a station symbol, representing the place where the re-weighing was done, and the date that the work was performed. Even if such stencilling were correct, the car might still have an incorrect lettering scheme and/or paint job. For this example to be correct (and again, it would only be for a limited time s
Your very kind to have taken the time to answer my many questions.
Since creating this posting, I have come to realize the huge undertaking I was requesting. I hadn’t realized that I was asking so very much from people. I do understand now that the info I’m wanting is much more complex than looking up things in a dictionary.
My apologies to all.
Forgive my stern needs for accuracy. It really bothers me to see steam era cars being pulled by modern diesels and steam locomotives lugging unit coal trains.
I’ve loved trains since birth (47 years ago), and have a tremendous amount of knowledge in general about them.
However, to be honest, I was never too concerned about the accuracy of any frieght cars past 1960. When I got the fever to model the steam era a few months ago, I have found it extremely hard to get accurate info on frieght cars. Seems dates were mostly in general not specific. The last thing I want is a car on my layout that doesn’t fit my era. It bothers me. A flaw in my personality I suppose.
I Thank you again my friend and to all who have taken the time to respond.
For the Boston and Maine, 1950 is five years before the McGinnis “bluebird” scheme arrived. B&M freight cars were boxcar red mostly with the Minuteman herald in white. At least all the photo’s in Sweetland and Horsley show a herald on boxcar red B&M cars.
BAR was also in boxcar red for 1950. The red white and blue State of Maine cars don’t come till well after 1950. Again, all the photos show the white shield shaped BAR herald.
Unit trains in the '30s and '40s aren’t out of the question, either.
Unit coal trains in my locale came from the N&W, C&O, and L&N, were transferred to the PRR in Columbus OH, and then moved with PRR power to Cleveland or Sandusky docks.
Unit trains of fuel oil tank cars during the war are also documented on film, as are express refer trains and some LCL (less than car load) and other mercandise trains. Oh, theres also livestock specils, as I’m sure the current MR series will explain soon.
You just need to make sure you have era appropriate cars in them. This is a great opportunity to model long coal trains or whatever, without actually modeling a mine or dock. They can operate as “pass throughs” to make the schedule more interesting (keep the wayfreight out of the way) and provide a taste of the modeled lines identity. Nothing says PRR like a string of loaded H21 hoppers grinding down the main at 35 MPH. Again I’m in 1948, so I need circle keystone heralds, not the large “plain” keystone from the 1950’s.
BTW, if I’m not mistaken, your Sentinal herald B&O cars would rarely be seen on another road. I believe this holds true for NYC Pacemaker and PRR merchanise seervice as well as other LCL “named service” cars. IIRC, these cars would be clustered together in a block at the front of the train, much like refers, and most likely be in higher class freight train, NOT a wayfreight. LCL was competion for OTR truck freight, sometimes including truck delivery to the doorstep.
Sometimes there’s confusion about what constitutes a “unit train”. Generally it means a set of cars that are basically identical to each other and that are run together as a single unit without cars being switched in or out. In effect, the whole train is treated as one big car.
True unit trains didn’t come around until about 25 years ago, with unit coal trains being among the first. The train would go thru around a loop of track to be loaded, then taken over the mainline to a destination where they would unloaded similarly and then the entire train would head back to get more coal. The same cars in the same order would make the same trip over and over again.
This is different from a solid train of reefers, stock cars, etc. where the train is assembled at a yard in city A, then run over the line to city B where the cars are separated out to go to their respective customers. Trains like that were common in the steam era, but weren’t true “unit trains”, since the cars weren’t kept together as a single “unit”.
My cutoff date is 1927, hence a great precentage of my freight equiptment has already had 15-20+ years of service and perhaps one rebuild under its belt, case in point my elders include a pair of pre 1900 SP reefers restricted to company ice service as were the prototypes by my late date. I have 143 Pacific Fruit Express reefers with build dates between 1906 and 1922, they were still performing yoeman service in 1927 abit with trip or two through the reconditioning shop, still others represent new construction, what ties them together is current paint, lettering and appliance standards regardless of age. Railroads and indvidule owner/shippers retained rolling stock for a much longer period of time back then as compared to today.
A unit train is a solid train traveling on a single waybill. It is billed as a unit.
One can run a single commodity train (such as a steam era coal train or grain train) without it being a “unit train”. It can even look and act the same between the departure at origin to the arrival at destination. What happens before origin departure and after destination arrival can be very different and the paperwork certainly will be.