Ok we all know the purposes of applying M/U hoses to our diesel models as in the prototype world only the lead locomotive controls the others in the lash up but what about Steam locomotives?
I like to run long coal trains at the club and the other night I had a a pair of big articulated locomotives pulling 97 loaded hoppers. One of the older guys in the club said well you guys didn’t make previsions for the M/U hoses. I looked art him and scratched my head as well as the other 50 something year old whipper snapper club member who was my firemen that night. I sadi well I am not an authority on running a steam engines as they were long gone by the time I was born for the most part but thought thats why they ran two crews? He insisted there should be M/U hoses hooked between the two locomotives.
Ok so did they or didn’t they? The only possible thing I could think of on the ride home was that maybe the lead locomotive controlled the braking system but other then that no way.
mu hoses and jumper cables as we know them were strictly a diesel or electric mu thing. the only exception i can think of would be possibly some provision for control of the diesel unit we often see included in modern day steam excursion operations.
aside from the air brake hose, steam locomotives did have connections for signal air and train heat steam when used in passenger service.
when double heading, all braking was controlled from the lead engine and steam engines had cut out cokcs. (no, i can spell. just trying to get by the censor) for this purpose. of course, the engineer on the other engine could cut the air back in and take control if there was a problem on the lead engine.
even if it was just going along for the ride, a live engine would have a messenger or baby sitter on it. not necessary for an engine dead in tow.
I can see the brake pipe, and steam line for a heated passenger train. Maybe some had independent locomotive brake lines and possibly some cab signals or communication lines but no way could there be control or MU equipment between steamers. The thousands of pictures I have looked at and all the locomotives in museums I have not seen more than 2 hoses between locos.
It could be that the excursion locos that are running the rails today like the UPs challenger could be set up to run a helper diesel from the cab of the steamer to eliminate the crews in them. Maybe that is what he was meaning?
Steam locomotives cannot be “MUed” together in the way that diesels can. A steam triple header would have a engineer and fireman on each locomotive. The crews communicated and worked together by using whistle and hand signals.
As has been mentioned, many steam locomotives operating today have a control stand for operating diesel helpers. These locomotives would have MU cables on their tenders.
No this guy was serious as a heart attack and not wanting to get into a heated discussion to prevent him from having said heart attack I just left it at well I’ll have to look into it for myself if you don’t mind.
Never actually seeing a steam double header in person I could have presented an intelligent argument I have seen many on countless videos and they club member who was my firemen mentioned that we saw one up at Steam town but we weren’t close enough to see and it was just a yard move if I am not mistaken.
It’s just one of those things with this guy I guess he’s from the I’m older then you so you don’t know anything you little snot crowd. Our senior club member told em I learned to ignore him back in the days of black & white TV.
People like that can be beyond irritating. I’ve found that the best thing to do is to put the ball in their court.
So I would politely ask this gentleman to bring in an example of two of his steamers to run them with their MU couplings linked… and, just so that you can see what a good job he has done… would he please bring in the list of parts/sources he has used to customise his models ('cos no model is ever going to leave Hallmark or Mehano with "steam MU2)… and, naturally the photographic evidence he used so that he knew that he’d got them right.
If you’re lucky he’ll never bother to talk to you again. If he does and he wants to have another go jyst repeat your desire to see the evidence for this one.
Then again I had an “expert” who wanted to tell me how UK Absolute Block Signalling works. Repeatedly I wouldn’t have minded but he was wrong about what the basic signals do… and wouldn’t listen to anyone pointing out that I have been a Relief Signalman. In the end even the other club members told me to tell him to go away in a manner that (rightly) would be censored. Unfortunate. I have never figured out what it is with people like that.
Anyway… Have a Happy New Millenium.
[8D]
PS When diesels or electrics aren’t fitted with MU cables (or non-matching cables - I read that {IIRC} Baldwin deliberately had non-standard cables) or they weren’t hooked up for some reason… then there would be a crew in each independent cab. We called it “running in Tandem” as distinct from “running in Multiple”. The only time I ever saw it done was when one diesel assisted a severely struggling DEMU.
Again, deisels electrics and steamers can’t MU with each other. These days there are ways that anything except steam locos can be controlled remotely. I imagine a lot of the contr
Not knowing about this possibility, I was a few years ago wandering around SP&S 700 (a 4-8-4) when I found on the rear of the tender a box about 6" square that said “EMD” on it. Wow, EMD and Baldwin. Who woulda thought. An informed bystander explained it pretty quickly.
Well I rode behind a steam doubleheader in 2007 (CP Hudson and Milwaukee Road Northern 261) and I can assure you they weren’t m.u.'ed together!!
I seem to remember some railway somewhere - maybe South African Railways?? - had a way to connect two engines so that the crews could communicate with each other while doubleheading. But it still took two crews to run the train.
Steam locomtives in excursion service today do have the MU lines to run the diesel from the cab of the steam locomotive. The Union Pacific excursions have the MU lines to run the diesel and the 4449 also has the lines so the diesel can be operated from the 4449, but the steam engine must be operated.
A steam locomotive is a manual hands on type of machine that requires it to be run, not MU’ed. It must have a fireman and an engineer onboard if it is operating. This along with the maintenance costs is the big reason the diesel replaced steam on every railroad. You can MU as many diesels as is needed to pull any size of train, but still only have one crew.
You don’t need to get into a heated discussion with him, just laugh at him and tell him “yeah, good one.”
There may be two air hoses at a steam locomotive’s coupler. One is the air brake line, and the slightly smaller one is the signal line. You’d mainly find the signal line on a passenger locomotive, in the vestibule of the passenger cars, there were two cords to pull. Facing out the end door, the one on the left was the emergency brake, and the one on the right was the signal cord. The Conductor could signal the engine crew, using the same code as the whistle code, to go ahead, stop, reverse, etc. Looking at the end of the locomotive or car, the brake line was on the left and the signal line on the right closer to the coupler, but on the left side of the coupler. IIRC, the gladhands on the ends of the hoses were different sizes to prevent mixing them up.
The larger pipe was a connection for steam heat, and some tenders had a water connection for an Aux Tender. These, I believe, were on the right side of the coupler.
Are you sure about that one? Cause the P42 aft her going to Trainfest was occupied, unless some Hobo was waving at me, but I was sure she was an Amtrak Employee.
One more possibility, in that I beliee 1225 was set up to take auxilliary steam. Now, I don’t know if that was a temp fix so she could look purty at Trainfest, after the pipes burst, or if that provision pre-existed. And, you couldn’t run the engine on it. But it was enough to keep her warm and look alive. I could see a provision like that to keep the engine heated in Winter, but that is also not an MU, and I don’t know if such a thing was commercial.
Sir, you’ll find the steam locomotive M/U hoses in Aisle 3, together with the left handed screwdrivers. Sometimes they are more easily found during a snipe hunt.
When the CP Royal Hudson went on a US tour back around 1980, it was accompanied by some B unit Fs, and M/U hoses showed that the diesels were controlled from the steam loco cab. While chasing it it became obvious that to save water and fuel they would let the diesels do most of the work once they were out of town and no longer needed to put on a steam show. I seem to recall the CNW 1385 4-6-0 also had a control stand to control its diesel helpers from the steam cab.
I suppose there is some chance that the guy was actually referring to steam heat hoses? Or the electrical line that some steamers had particularly in commuter service? Either that or the guy has the world’s best poker face!
Sir, you’ll find the steam locomotive M/U hoses in Aisle 3, together with the left handed screwdrivers. Sometimes they are more easily found during a snipe hunt.
Then you have to ask the question; since there are separate controls for the steam and diesel locomotives, are they truly being operated in multiple unit? Even if the two sets of controls are being operated by the same Engineer.
It wouldn’t take that much of a poker face to pull this off.
Exactly, and we keep that next to the exhaust filters because Fed Regulations say when the fluid is changed, the exhaust filters must be also. As a courtesy to our customers, they are co-located on our shelves.
Well the subject came up once again at the club and this time I had nothing to do with it. The member in question had his picture to prove to the young punk aka yours truly that tow steam locomotives consisted together had MU hoses. I never really argued the point with him I told him I wasn’t 100% certain but I didn’t belive he was correct and would have to find out for myself. Well the senior club member and president said let me see that picture and he pointed out after calling him a blind old fool that what he was calling MU hoses were actually the brake hoses. He now argues that they are one in the same and now the fights on.
Now you have to picture this to appreciate this and I wish i had the presence of mind to video them with my phone but here are two guys who were around when God was a kid and dirt was new both weighing a combined weight of maybe 200lbs soaking wet, arguing this point tooth and nail so the prez. say well You “an acronym for a mule” paraphrasing lets go look it up on the internet right now and settle this, so you’ll be buying me coffee and donuts for the rest of the year. Ah those computers don’t know “what comes out of the back end of a mule” Well lets just say it was the best stand up comedy show I have seen in a long time and I wasn’t alone as most of the guys were just standing around laughing at the may-lay. I was proud of myself as I never uttered a peep during the whole thing and just kept soldering wires together even if they don’t need to be soldered.