Hello everybody! I have a steam locomotive that I’m having an issue troublshooting, and I was wondering if anyone has any ideas. It is an HO scale Mantua 4-6-0 Rogers type, (looks like Sierra Railroad No.3) it’s sluggish and it pretty much stops. I’ve oiled it and cleaned it’s wheels and it still has the same problem. I know it’s not the track or power pack because I’ve run other bigger locos on the same setup, and no problems. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I don’t have that particular engine, but my guess would be that something is binding. Have you tried taking it off the tracks and running it upside-down with clip leads? That will tell you if it runs OK with no load at all.
If the engine has not been run for a while, it may be in need of a gearbox cleaning. Old grease can harden up. Hopefully, you can access the internal gears without taking it apart too much.
Be careful not to disturb the running gear, and don’t take that apart unless you absolutely have to. Getting it back together right might prove difficult.
Mr. B has some great advice there.
However, if it’s like the Mantua kit I built – same engine I’m sure – it may be suffering from some internal corrosion, etc depending on its age. There wasn’t really any valve gear on mine, just the main and piston rods, so if the test tries recommended don’t work, look it over and it may be worth opening up and shouldn’t be very complex in this case, unlike many other steamers.
If nothing else and you get stuck, let me know. I’ve still got my now nearly half-century old 4-6-0 and have thought about what it would take to make it run again, too. I could give mine a look-see, maybe crack it open if you want to see someone else’s first.
I have one of those Mantua Rogers locomotives that never did run well enough to even try to repair, so it was just placed on the head end of a static display.
My particular one was purchased just as Mantua was going out of business, and the problem seemed to be that they were getting rid of defective motors that they had on hand.
It’s a very nice looking model, but definitely needs a new, better motor to ever run.
I have a couple of Mantua and MDC locos similar to that. I usually remove the motor and worm gear and make sure the loco mechanism runs smoothly without any resistance. If it still has problems rolling smoothly, then look for binding in the axle/bearing area. Sometimes just cleaning the axle and relubing it corrects the problem. There could also be a ‘quartering’ problem but have never had this issue with these locos. Last area would be the valve gear and that should be noticable with binding at the rivets or sliding crossheads. Good luck on finding the problem and please let us know what you discover.
-Bob
Thank you MisterBeasley for your advice, I’ll have to try these things. I printed some literature with an exploded view off the web, so that should help with taking it apart. I’m not sure when it ran last, I bought it used from a local train shop, so I don’t know how it’s last owner treated it. I’ve never had to do anything like this before, so I’m a little ignorant about it. Do you have any advice on what to use to clean the gearbox?
Thank you for your input Mr. Lehman. I’m going to try Mr. B’s advice. I’ll definately let you know how it goes. I bought it used and I’m not sure how old it is. Is there any way of telling? Also, if it is indeed corrosion, is there any way of fixing it?
Thank you cacole. If it’s the motor, how hard are they to come by and replace?
Thanks Bob for your advice. I’ll try what you said. Not sure how long I’ll take, but I’ll definately let you know what becomes of it.
Wolf359,
[#welcome] To The Forums.
I have built quite a few Mantua steamers in the past and I’ll have to agree with Cacole, in all likelihood it is the motor. You can try and clean it up,armature, commutator and oil the armature shaft bearings/bushings inner/outer so it turns easily, but it is not a great motor.
Good Luck! [:D]
Frank
Does your locomotive have electrical wipers/pickups on the wheels? Sometimes those get dirty and can’t transfer electricity. Before you start tearning into the engine/looking into valve gear binding, check into that.
There is no gear box. Just a worm on the motor shaft driving a worm gear on the driver axle.
The gear on the motor is a worm, not a worm gear. Big difference many are not aware of.
If the drivers are clean and the tender wheels clean, check the wipers on the tender.
With older locos like this, I learned many years ago from an article in a Model Railroader magazine to remove the motor and gently push thee loco by hand on a piece of glass. The drivers and side rods should operate easily.
Che ck the worm to worm gear spacing.
I have a couple of these locos from many years ago.
Rich
Should have mentioned that when I remove the motor and worm, I test the motor with DC voltage to see if it runs smooth and quiet. If not, clean the armature, check brushes and oil the bearings. If nothing helps, usually the motor is too far gone and I would replace it with a suitable can motor. I have rescued many of these older open frame motors with these repairs.
Also, if the motor works OK and the loco rolls OK without the motor, then the problem was most likely the ‘mating’ of the two gears, which can be adjusted by shimming the motor (front, rear or overall).
-Bob
PS: The gear on the motor is a worm, and the gear on the driver shaft is the worm gear. Thanks Rich.
Dug out my old #3 and found it breaks down fairly easily. The screw that the front truck pivots on loosens the front. The plastic backhead/rear of boiler pops off, which lets you pop the rear of the boiler/cab casting loose. You’ll want to take the tender ground feed and tender loose first. If the headlight is installed, the wire goes where the ground wire attaches on top the motor with the brush mount at the front.
My 1970 vintage loco has a 5 pole open frame motor. It still runs well when fed DC with it torn down. The rods and drivers run well like this. Will have to test when it’s back together to verify gear lash and running quality. Mine has no valve gear, but upgraded versions may. I suspect it all mounts on the frame/cylinder casting, so taking off the boiler should leave it in place and undisturbed, making tearing down and cleaning one up an easy beginner’s project with just a little care.
It runs![swg]
I think after you get the drivers cleaned, you’ll find the most significant issues on the tender. The drivers are nickel silver, so clean up failry easily. The left side tender wheels that carry the return path are brass and will take more effort. They don’t have to be shiny brass, but they do need to be clean.
It’s easier to clean the tender trucks if you remove them. When you loosen the screw and take up the truck, you should find a brass washer underneath between the bolster and the kingpin. Shine it up on each side and clean the bolster.
The screw that holds the tender end of the insulated drawbarshould have the brass round terminal end under it. It needs cleaned also.
For all 3 contacts, some CRC 2-26 or other contact enhancer might be useful.
Put all back together, getting the brass tender truck wheels all on the left side, and you should be ready to test. Make sure things are all lubed, too, including the worm and its driven gear, the rod and crankpins, and the piston rod slides.
Mine is a little cranky, but once going does OK back and forth on a 3 foot testtrack. I even have a headlight.
Still not sure about decodering it and adding Kadees. I have a couple of Overton passenger cars that like it are still equipped with horn-hooks. Running current is under 0.3 amps. Let me think about this one.[^o)]
I’ll fall back to others arguments related to Tyco/Manuta steamers never being good scale runners. I have at one time or another built every steamer they ever offered and refuse to say a kind word about one of them, even if they were RTR and factory assembled. The kits were very inexpensive and, as such, you got less than stellar operation.
I do believe you could dump a significant rework effort in any of them today and make them workable and reliable runners.
Unfortunately, as built, they were really poor scale models to begin with, though they satisfied a need and can still do that as they were the first post WWII locos along with some of Varney’s efforts that really built HO into what it is today.
As I never seem to get rid of anything, I have all my old Manuta/Tyco steamers packed away and doubt they will ever see a piece of track again. The modern high end steamers of today just make them quaint relics of the old days of less than acceptable looks and operation.
So, taking the advice of others and assuming you have a place in your heart for the loco, it can be an acceptable runner, even at low speed, (crawl), if you are willing to remotor and re-gear and rework.
All the best in getting this old work horse going to your satisfaction.
Does the engine have a working headlight? If it does, does it go out when the engine stops running? If so, then the problem is probably electrical. Move the tender in a sideways motion while power is applied and if that helps, then there might be poor contact somewhere between the tender wheels and the engine. If the headlight flickers but the engine doesn’t move, then maybe something is jammed up in the running gear.
Richard, I’ll take your old Mantua/Tyco steamers to save them from a life relegated to being packed away!
To the OP: the subject of the tenders and their contacts came up. I have several Mantua’s, mostly 2-8-2’s and a few 4-6-2’s that I have done some work on the tenders and drastically increased their operability. It takes a little skill and time but for me was worth it.
Basically, I simply wired the tender trucks to the metal tender body. Using a pin vise, and 2-56 tap and the appropriate drill bit, I drilled and tapped each truck for a 2-56 screw. Right behind the front truck mount and in front of the rear mount, I drilled a 3/16" or so hole in the tender base. I used phone wire, a single strand, connected to the screw in the truck, passed through the hole, and to another 2-56 screw drilled, tapped and installed in the metal tender underbody. This procedure alone, along with cleaning the axle/truck interface, has greatly improved operability. I have not completed each one I have but don’t even have to look to know which ones are done or not. Their performance alone tells me.
I also have one that I converted a Rivarrosi tender to work with. A little weight added to that tender was all it needed. Another great improvement.
Do any of them crawl at one tie per minute? No, But they weren’t originally made (geared) too either, but they sure spend their fair time pulling long freights or express mail/reefer trains around my layout!
There are certainly better made models, both operationally and detail, but these are great bases which to learn on. Enjoy the learning experience!
Happ RR’ing!
Duane
Sorry for the double post. After I clicked “enter” I remembered I actually used a cordless drill for all the drilling. The trucks are pretty hard so easy goes it with the tap.
Duane
Yea! I got it running right!!![:D] As it turns out, a little oil somehow got on the motor. I’m not sure how that happened, maybe it flew in there when I tried it the first go around. I just want to thank everyone for the good advice! It will definately be useful if I ever come accross a problem like this again. Happy New Year everyone! Elias.