Steam passenger operations on N&W Rwy's Radford division circa 1958

Classic Trains General Discussion
1

Are there any old Norfolk and Western employees out there?

I am writing a short story and need some information about the operation of the passenger trains the Norfolk and Western use to operate in conjunction with the Southern Railway. These are the trains that operated on the Southern Railway between Washington and Lynchburg VA, on the Norfolk and Western Railway between Lynchburg and Bristol VA, and then again on the Southern Railway to points west.

During the late ‘50s, during the last days of steam:
Where did crews change on that stretch of railroad?
Did the locomotives and crews run through from Lynchburg to Bristol, or was there a change of either or both in Roanoke?
Where were the crews based?

On the 600 “J” class locomotives:
How many seats were in the cab?
Did the head brakeman ride in the cab or back in the train?
And finally, what kind of rules had to be broken, or what kind of permission needed to be granted, for a family member to ride with an engineer?

Any information along these lines would be appreciated, best wishes, Steve

2

I will be interested in this too. One bit of information I can furnish, possibly that you know already. The first use of road diesel power on the N&W was during the John L. Lewis 1948 coal strike when Southern diesels ran through Lynchberg to Bristol.

3

Steve,
You may want to go to;
www.nwhs.org
Join their mailing list and ask your question. I have some feelers out, but I’ll tell you what little that I know now and that might not be quite right.
Keep in mind that union rules may have changed many times through the years.
Conductors and trainmen would run through from Lynchburg to Bristol. Engineers stayed on their respective districts.
For each train there would be one Norfolk Div. crew and one Radford Div. crew.
The men would be based in Roanoke so they would either drive their car or ride another train to Lynchburg to protect the job. Run to Bristol, layover and come back the next day to Lynchburg.
Engineers would change in Roanoke.
Passenger crews rode in the cars.

As far as I know, no N&W steam had more than two seats in the cab. If you have ever seen the inside of the 1218 you would see why. There is just no room in there for another seat. The head brakeman on a freight could ride in the “Doghouse” or stand up in the cab or if the train was very short he could ride the caboose.

If I find out anything more I will post it here.

4

During excursion days 611 had a third seat behind the fireman, but that may not have been there when the J’s were in regular service.

5

Thank you all for all input.

For anyone interested in this subject I would recommend the book: Steam Steel and Stars, which contains photographs by O. Winston Link and text by Tim Hensley. This book has it that regular steam operations on the Bristol line ended on 31 December 1957. Whether this was all steam operations or just those on trains operated to and from the Southern Railway, I don’t know.

Daveklepper’s comments on the first diesels to operate on the Norfolk and Western were interesting. I remember seeing a photo in Trains magazine of Norfolk and Western trains with some Atlantic Coast line locomotives on them. This was a similar situation, as coal strikes were common in the ‘50s, as John L. Lewis and the United Mine Workers union was quite active at this time, trying to elevate coal miners above the status of serfdom.

How does one post scans in this forum? I have a couple that might be of interest.

When I write my short story it will probably be posted in this thread.
Best wishes, Steve

6

Look forward to reading it!

7

FYI,
Roanoke to Hagerstown passenger crews went through to Hagerstown while the engineers changed in Shenandoah.

8

And - there´s another book dealing with N&W and the work of O.Winston Link, and not only his night shots: "The Last Steam Railroad In America, Harry N. Abrams, Inc, Publishers, 1995, which covers the whole range of Link´s work on the N&W, complete with color photography and a good deal of text as well. Impressive pictures and very informative, though I´m not sure if it´s still available - maybe Ebay or amazon is worth a try!

Best regards to you US railfans

Tom

9

Both “Steam Steel and Stars” and “The Last Steam Railroad In America” are available from the O Winston Link Museum.

10

A couple of questions for anyone who might know:
Did the Bristol line have position light signals?
Did N&W passenger train crews use hand signals or did they have train communication signals in the late 1950s?

11

Yes, the Bristol line had position light signals, and yes the N&W passenger equipment was equipped with train communication lines.

12

As promised, here is the story. Please keep in mind that even though the setting is real and the story is based on a real incident, most of the events are fictional. H. O. Richardson and Danny McMurphy are products of my imagination. I have no idea who was on the Eastbound Birmingham Special or what they were doing the morning of Dec. 23rd 1957.

Constructive criticism, especially regarding factual errors, is welcome. Please respect the fact that this work is copyrighted. Best wishes, Steven C. Merriam

Portrait Of a Lady

You are tired as you report for work at the Bristol, Virginia, roundhouse, just like hundreds, maybe thousands of times before. You find things the same as you have always found them, a few locomotives simmering quietly on the ready track, the sound of hammering coming from the blacksmith shop, the hiss of escaping steam and, as always, the pervasive smell of coal smoke and grease. It is dark, a moonless December night. Steel wheels clank over the rail gap as a hostler backs a K1 (Note 1) onto the turntable and you think about just how much your job is going to change. After next week work will be cleaner and easier, but also more boring; however, tonight you will, although you don’t realize it at the time, once again, feel the thrill of having a fine lady respond to your touch.

You sign the book in the roundhouse, on duty at 1:29 AM, Dec. 23rd 1957, and talk a spell with a young machinist. He is glum, talking about how the diesels are coming and how he wonders if he will be able to keep his job. Diesels won’t need as much maintenance as steam locomotives and much of the work they will need will be done by electricians, not machinists.

This is old news, most railroads have replaced their steam locomotives with diesels years ago, the Norfolk and Western is a hold out, mainly because of the vast amounts of coal the road hauls. “The Company” figured that they should be a good customer to the coal industry, as well as a

13

I got as far as the “602…J1” part. The 602 was a J, not a J1. It was part of the first order, 600 - 604. The unstreamlined war babys 605 - 610 were at first classed as J1’s but after their streamlining they were reclassed as simply J.

14

That is good information, The text has been changed.
Best wishes, SM

15

I believe that power or stretch braking would be used instead of shutting off the throttle and applying the brakes for each curve. Train handling would get a little rough the way you’ve currently described it. Comments from the “real” engineers on this thread??

16

Thank you, I will change things a bit on the rewrite.

17

I really enjoyed reading the story. Thanks for letting us share it.

You could be more “plitically correct” by changing “fat negro cook” to
“stout negro cook.” Not that there is any good reason to make this change, but there are always people who will find excuses to accuse people of bigotry even when it is only in their imagination.

It has been at least 15 years since I last rode behind a steam engine and I still can imagine the experience in my mind. Again, thanks!

18

One other sticking point that I thought of after reading the rest of the story is about the signals.
The “Stop and Proceed” signal refered to in the story would have to be an “intermediate” signal. It has been my experience over the past thirty odd years that “intermediate” signals are not under the direct control of the dispatcher.
Only “Home” signals, read those able to display a “Stop and Stay”, are directly controlled by the dispatcher. That said, the dispatcher could not knock an intermediate signal down to stop a train.
In CTC territory the “intermediate” signals would be governed by the “Home” signals and which direction the dispatcher sets up the current of traffic.
So the story should read “Stop and Stay”.
Also phone boxes were only placed at “Home” signals and a few other places where a phone would be needed, but not at every “intermediate” signal.
Nowadays the “Stop and Stay” signals are “Stop” signals and the “Stop and Proceed” signals are “Restricting” signals and only requires that the train pass the signal at restricted speed without stopping.

19

R. H. Smith did not have a III behind his name. He did have a son, R. H. Smith, Jr. If there was a III, it would be Smith’s grandson. Don’t know the family history that recently.

20

Gentleman,
Thank you for the additional information.

The information on signals was especially valuable. I will end up making that signal a “home” or restrictive signal as I do my final rewrite. I never was really comfortable about the engineer “just deciding” that the conductor might want to talk to the dispatcher.

As far R. H. Smith having a III after his name or not, I am a little bit confused. In the book Steam Steel and Stars it is said that he did, feltonhill says differently and he might be right. It would certainly not be the first time that a book author passed on some bad information.
At any rate, I might just drop the “III” as it is not critical to the story.

The irony of the situation is that I am writing this for a college class and I am reasonably sure that nobody in the class would be able to tell the difference between a home signal and a traffic light. Still, I try to get things right when I write.

Best wishes, Steve