layout progressing slowly but surely, but still pndering a few things about switch machines… of course with a big yard there will be a few switch machine ( all going to be under the table)… but I am wondering if I should go manual instead… just seeing that the cost for the switch machines is up there…
I have a mix of Atlas & peco switches and figure I should keep each machine with each maker…
Is it worth it to go manual or not?
Mike
I leave Peco turnouts thrown by hand if they are ones that I can reach to do so. I don’t remove the built-in spring and just use the Peco throw arm without anything else.
Maybe you should rephrase the question: Should you go remote or not?
The priority for my rather small switching layout is to have remote switching, with no hands reaching in there to perform mundane chores. Once that was established, it wasn’t to difficult to see that I could make remote, mechanical/manual switch actuators at the fascia board for a significant cost savings and perhaps more enjoyment in operating.
A large yard would certainly benefit from remote switching, but electro-mechanical might be worthwhile there because of the ability to incorporate some sort of signaling and indicators.
KL
Mike,
If you have designed you layout for easy walk-around control, manual ground throws make the most sense. On my layout I use Caboose Industries ‘High’ switch stands all along the mainline, and the smaller ground throws in the yard area. All of my staging has Tortoise motors, as do some harder to reach turnouts on Wye legs(I can reach there, but it is a pain to try and ‘throw’ the switch in those locations). This gives me a total of 10 ‘powered’ turnouts, and 37 ‘manual’ turnouts. My turnouts are all Atlas, but the Peco turnouts have a nifty ‘spring-lock’ feature that holds the points over nicely.
If you are looking at ‘powered’ switch machines, do not buy ‘cheap’ - Switch machines are one of the highest maintenance items on a layout!
Jim
The first factor I would consider is the size of the yard. Mine is a large double ended yard and I would do a lot of walking back and forth to throw the switches so it was definitely worth it to have remote switches.
The other factor is whether there are structures or scenery between the aisle and the switches. If there are, eventually you are going to break something reaching into the layout to throw a switch. On my yard, that wouldn’t have been a problem because the only structure was the yard tower which was in the middle of th yard and not near a turnout. The distance factor was the only one that dicatate remotes for me.
Mike
I’m sure you will get quite a few responses strongly advocating manual or switch machines, with good reasons.
My premise is that the control systems should suit the desired mode of operation. Relative costs should not be the deciding factor unless it’s a show stopper. Allow me to explain further:
If you prefer to sit back in your easy chair and admire your trains running through your beautiful scenery, then getting up and going to the far side of the layout to throw a manual turnout to change the train’s route isn’t going to make you happy. If you enjoy the role of dispatching various trains down various routes from your central panel, then manual throws located more than a foot away aren’t going to make you happy. If you run mostly through trains, and use your yard primarily for staging, switch machines will probably be better - especially if you use your 0-5-0 digital switcher to rearrange the trains. In other words, any situation that favors a central control panel will favor switch machines for all but the closest turnouts.
On the other hand, if you use walk-around or radio control, manual throws are quite practical for all but the difficult to reach turnouts. If you enjoy switching operations, you will probably not be bothered by manually throwing a turnout (and may even prefer it).
Ideally, the locomotive control system, the turnout throw mechanism, and the uncoupling system should be similar in concept. If you use uncoupling magnets rather than picks or skewers, you will want to use manual throws or push buttons at the fascia. If the idea of the hand of God reaching into the scene bothers you, or you shudder at the idea of catching some delicate scenery or structure details with your shirt sleeve, then you would naturally prefer the throw or push buttons be mounted at the fascia.
On the other hand, if you do use skewers or picks for all your uncoupling moves, mounting a ground throw next to the turnout completes the vision of being the train c
I am in a similar situation…I have an existing lay-out then I started building a yard and also converted to DCC. I thought I wanted a almost fully automated switching lay-out plus automated signals as well until I started adding the sums!
So I can only afford to automate the yard for now. 
So I think you should build it the way you want it even if it takes a long time. Especially with DCC, nothing more enjoyable just sit back and watch the yard comes to life without hvaing being needing to get up and fiddle around with switches. I value operational side of rail modeling now that I converted to DCC and Micro-Train.
Excellent…
now what are good reliable switch machines… I have a couple of Atlas under the table… but they don’t look to sturdy to me…
Mike
While they are the cheapest, easiest and perhaps the most reliable/maintainable method of turnout operation, I disdain ground throws because they are over-sized and can lead to layout/rolling stock damage while using them. Thus, I favor using remote mechanisms such as under-the-roadbed electrical machines (I like the Tortoise machine) and mechanical linkage.
Mark
I have initially relied on hand-made wooden push-pull slide blocks in some cases, and on wooden hand-made bell-crank style. I used straightened metal coat hangers for rods. They all work pretty well, except for the wire hanger actuating rods. They bend and require lots of eyelets or something else to keep them as true as possible under pressure. (Hey, every modeler needs to keep learning stuff!) So, my yard, right at my chest and only 8 feet long, will be exclusively finger thrown Peco #6’s because I like to be active in my yard operations. Along the main, though, I will eventually resort to the Blue Point or maybe Tortoise before next Christmas. The issue isn’t so much that they are all further away, but that their position is such that I can’t tell which way the points lie at any one time…at least, not easily. I need a remote machine that is more positive than the flimsy coat hanger wire, but that tells me if the turnout is thrown for diverging or through. To date, this has been the single most exasperating aspect of my new layout.
As I have stated on other threads, I am a fan of Humpyard levers for manual remote. I use Caboose where ever there is an easy reach as in my yard. I have Tortoise and they are fine for where I want an electronic remote. With DCC radio, I am always where the train is and the Caboose look better than ever.
[#ditto] Absolutely. And the Tortoise is the best. Guaranteed for 9 (yes, NINE) years. I’ve even bought them used on eBay, and while they looked like they’d been rescued from the Titanic (well, maybe a slight exaggeration), they work just fine! Plus they have two SPDT relays if you ever want to to power routing, control signals, etc. I have about 100, no failures yet.
When I pulled my layout out of boxes after 40 years of storarge, I had a bunch of ancient Atlas switch machines. They were on my teenage layout in the 1960’s, and a lot of them came from a garage sale box o’ trains, so they were used when I got them. I discovered that I could still mount them on new Atlas snap-switches, and I’ve got a number of them still running with over a year in service on my current layout, and close to a half-century of physical age.
I hate the look of the above-table Atlas machines, though, and the under-table models don’t work with 2-inch foam because the shafts aren’t long enough. I like Peco a lot, and the ones I’ve got have given me no problems. I even have a couple in hard-to-get-to tunnel locations.
I second the suggestion that the best on the market is the Tortiose by Circuitron. It really is worth the money. They throw the switch realistically, can work on a wide range of voltages 9v to 12v DC (actually work better at 9 volt I think), are practically indestructable and are very forgiving in installation. I have burned out many of the old Earthquake snap type machines (Whap!) and will never use (Bam!) them again. I will have about 65 torti installed on the layout when finished and so far they are incredible!
They are not that much more expensive than the snap type (especially when you factor in the fact that they will probably never have to be replaced) and will still be working when you replace the cheaper ones. The best price I have found for them is here: http://www.empirenorthernmodels.com/index.htm ( I am not an employee or associated in any way with this store. Well I do know and trust the owner…) He also gives great service.
SINCE THE TOPIC HEAD WAS “SWITCH MACHINES”, I will start with that.
SWITCH MACHINES. There are two (2) prevelent types: twin coil (selenoid), and ‘stall motor’.
SELENOID: Normally 12 V. AC or DC using momentary electrical pulses of 1.5 - 3 amps per machine. Mechanical spring pressure holds alignment.
Advantage:Cheaper/simpler/faster. Disadvantage: momentary actuation with higher amperage. Disadvantage: throwing multiple selenoids simultaneously. Coils can burn out with non momentary toggles.
STALL MOTOR: A small ‘Geared’ motor using miniscule current to throw and hold alignment.
Advantage: Gentler mechanical action. Use conventional toggles. Disadvantage: Cost. Requires 12 V. DC supply (no AC). Slower throw.
Enhancements: Powered frogs or adding Illuminated indicators require separate electrical contacts. Caveats: These two systems require different powering sources. They can not be mixed.
MANUAL CONTROL: Is preferred by some via levers, push rods. or ‘Caboose’ trackside throws. Advantage: Cost. Disadvantage: Access.
I use all 3 of the above. I have a Regulated 12V.DC supply for Stall Motors, and a 8 amp Capacitive Discharge Unit for my leftover twin coils , and Caboose ground throws (#220S) now for the reachable yards. The KEY here is must having these all accessable.
ARE the motor drive Switch machines superior to the twin coil selenoids? I don’t know - they’re new. They’ll be gentler - and slower - with my newer Shinohara made Code 70 and code 83 turnouts. My homemade 8 mfd.‘Snapper’ worked swell with my code 100 turnouts.
One minor correction: the Stall Motors don’t necessarily require a 12v power supply. As a previous post mentioned, many (me included) use 9v to make them move a bit more slowly. A common 9v “wall wart” rated at 800 milliamps will run about 50 Tortoises.
And a clarification about the “separate contacts”: they are not an extra-cost option with the Tortoise – they’re built-in.
And there are some additional pieces of gear that plug directly onto a Tortoise. They’re fairly pricey, but provide a wide range of additional control and options. More info at: http://tonystrains.com/technews/tortoise/index.htm
(I have no connection to Circuitron except as a satisfied customer.)
Actually mine are geared down Hankscraft 3 volt motors with 1000 ohm resistor current limiting resistor. They will operate on even 3 volts with a different resistor - and even slower.
RE (Electrical contacts:) ‘Contacts’ are required to power frogs or indicators - whether supplied, or not - but you are correct that ‘TORTOISE’ has them, as does RIX. (Atlas and most others do not). Thank you for sharing.
Mike:
Peco & Atlas are both selenoid types. They operate on 12v - 24v AC or DC. KEY is sufficient amps available. MANUAL or REMOTE depends on ‘reachability’ and (2) your desire for automation - push pull, click click.
YOU ARE WISE to match makes of switch machines with turnouts for ease of attaching one to the other. BUT IF you are considering under the table (to hide), may I personally recomend RIX and RIX RAX? They are easier to mount and to adjust.