Strange Move

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

I ate lunch at the north end of a train yard today. There was a train getting ready to leave. As the crew was getting ready a local came in on one of the mainlines and sat south of the switch to enter the yard. After awhile the train in the yard pulled forward and stopped. The crew then broke the train in two. They then ran the train about a half mile north on the mainline with the conductor riding the last car. It sat there for a few minutes and backed into the yard on the track adjacent to the one the rest of the train was on. I thought they were going to let the local enter the yard before finishing, but it sat there the whole time.

I had to leave and get back to work, so I do not know what happened after that. My guest is they were setting out a bad order car. Why did they run so far past the switch to the mainline, and even further past the switch to get on the adjacent track?

2

Dragging past the signal that protects the yard throat entrance, wait till the dispatcher can flip it, then finish the work.

3

Thanks, Ed. What is the reason for going past the signal?

4

Ummmm… so you can see it (?) !

5

So you can clear out of the track segment in the interlocking that contains the switch so the switch can be operated by the person that controls the switch and then get a signal indication for the move in the opposite direction. Switches cannot be operated when their track segment indicates it is occupied.

6

I think I see the confusion here.

Most yards are protected by a signal governing movement into and out of the yard.

They do not necessarily have to be signals on a mast or overhead signal bridge, in fact a lot of yards have dwarf signals, (small single light signals at ground level) which often, but not always display a lunar aspect to allow entrance into the yard.

Lunar signals protect double ended controlled sidings, and most yard throats, although they have fallen from favor lately and are being replaced by the standard 3 light signals.

Lunar aspect indicates proceed at restricted speed, not to exceed timetable yard/track speed.

All a lunar aspect governs is movement past the signal, once past it entering a yard, all switches will likely be hand operated, and where you go is totally up to the yardmaster and the crew.

If, as is often the case, the yard entrance has a single switch that allows movement to two or more lead tracks, so movement must proceed on signal indication past that switch, so your crew, when they pulled out of the one track, entered the circuit governing the signal, which would have made it drop to red for movement entering the yard.

In order to allow the control operator to clear the signal and reline the switch, the crew would have had to pull up to the point the rear car was past not only the signal, but the remainder of the track circuit, to allow the control operator to re-line the switch for the shove movement into the other track.

Most signal systems, when operated in this manner, have a timer circuit designed to allow enough time for a train to clear the next circuit, before they allow the signal to be cleared for a following train, this time out period is normally 10 minutes, once the timer ran it course and unlocked the switch/signal control, the control operator can re-line the switch.

The crew member was riding the rear car to let the engineer know when he had cleared the circuit, and then when the si

7

I am not quite following.

The switches are manually operated, including the switch on the mainline. The train is the daily hauler (or whatever UP calls it) to Roseville. It originates at the yard in question. I eat lunch there frequently (trying to time lunch to when the train leaves), so I have seen this train leave the yard many times. I saw this happen once before a while back, but most of the time they do not do this, even when they pull out on the mainline to set out a bad order or double the train.

Usually, the conductor will line the switch for the train to enter the main. The train will sit for a few minutes. A conductor told me this is to let the circuit time out. He said the time period is 5 minutes, if I remember correctly The train will then pull onto the mainline, double if needed, set out bad orders if needed (in both cases pulling just clear of the switch in the yard), then will pull clear of the switch onto the mainline. The conductor then relines the switch and sets the derail. Then the Renzenberger van will take him to the locomotives.

In case it matters, SP’s Western Region Timetable 3 (effective 10/29/1989 at 12:01 AM) lists the track south of the yard as double track, ABS, ABS at the yard (there are two mains but it does not have DT or 2MT), and CTC siding north of the yard. The two mains run continuously from where the timetable shows the south end of the DT (a few miles south of the yard) to where the timetable shows the north end of the CTC siding (a couple of miles north of the yard). There is a crossover at the south end of the yard, but not the north end. I have no idea if this is still ABS.

8

So if I am reading your question correctly, what your concern is why did they sit there for a few minutes and why did they set half the train over?

If so, it sounds like they were setting a block out for some reason, why they waited might be to talk to the yard master and see if the local was going to leave first, or if they were going to finish their move first?

9

I wouldn’t say I have any concerns. The reason I don’t follow you or BaltACD is that it seems that your explanations require the switch to be remotely controlled. However, this switch is operated by the conductor. What are possible reasons why they would do this with a manually operated switch?

The train originates at the yard where I was watching it, so it was probably setting out a bad order (this happens frequently with this train).

10

Maybe they were going to let the local enter the yard before the other crew shoved back in, but someone (yardmaster?) changed his/her mind.

Happens.

11

This is from a different RR, but on my scanner I have heard the dispatcher say things like, “I’ll remove the lock on that switch as soon as the timeout completes, then you can throw it.” That implied to me that maybe the switch is not remotely controlled as far as actually moving the rails, but that it IS remotely lockable. The dispatcher cannot put a train in the yard, but a human can’t force one to do so either… it requires action by both parties.

The timeout is required so that a signal that regulates the traffic on the line is able to change to warn any approaching traffic and you must wait at least long enough to be sure that some train that was already past the light has time to get through the switch before you get a chance to foul the track in front of it. If the signal is 5 minutes away (at some normal train speed) then you need to wait at least that long before you make changes to the track.

It is often frustrating for the general public to understand why the RR seems to be so slow doing things.

Examples:

Maintenance Of Way (MOW) shows up and the workmen just stand around for 15 minutes before going to work. Unless you are really paying attention you might not understand that they were waiting for a train to go by so they are not out on the track when it gets there. They got there early enough to get started as soon as the line was clear, but they have to wait for the line to BE clear!

When I was a kid, to visit relatives the route we took crossed a RR track. We were often delayed at that grade crossing by a train fouling it. The train would back up a few cars, then stop a while, then pull forward a few feet and stop a while again. Then it would back up a few more cars and stop yet again. Then pull forward a few cars, only to stop again and repeat the process. Sometimes it stopped with the engine right in the middle of the crossing!

Every time it started to move, Mom or Dad would exclaim, “There he goes, we’ll get to go now.” Of course, when the

12

Thanks

13

This explains an experience of mine in September, 1968. I was riding the Rock Island’s Plainsman from Kansas City to Minneapolis, and, as we approached Des Moines, we were held by an east-west freight movement which went back and forth many times and kept us from entering the east-west track so we could move into the station.

14

It is possible that the cars they were switching had their air brakes bleed off and the movement was only being controlled by the engine brakes. If they were managing a pretty heavy cut of cars they could have pushed the engines down the track a ways before they could get it stopped. Other than that maybe the conductor instructed the engineer to move down the tracks to check something out. Like maybe an industry to see if they were ready for a switch. Without being there it really could be anything.

As far as your other description of a crew in the yard waiting to enter the mainline where the main track is controlled by signals we call it “running time”. First you obtain permission from the dispatcher to enter the main and once he or she grants it you open the time box and set it up. These boxes are designed so no one could just throw a switch in front of an approaching train. By running time it will show the track occupied and cause the signals to change to red. It is designed not to unlock the switch mechanism until a specific time elapses. This allows any train on the mainline currently approaching the switch that is trying to be accessed not to be thrown in front of them.

Hope this helps!

Tim