Suggestions for folding multi-deck connected shadowboxes into rooms?

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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A friend of mine has just bought a new home, and will be getting a basement with some room for a layout (see figure below) - the rooms potensially useful for a model railroad are labeled:

a) Storage 1 (upper left hand corner), 13’ 3" x 9’ 9" - layout in front of inspection hatch for crawl space must be removable, window is high on wall and won’t get in the way for model railroading, door can be reversed to open outwards if necessary

b) Storage 2 (upper right corner), 9’ 8" x 9’ 6". Window is high on wall and won’t get in the way for a layout.

c) Storage 3 (center) is a small room, about 4’ 2" x 6’ 3" - might possibly be used for some staging.

The wall between rooms Storage 1, Storage 2 and storage 3 are concrete wall, which cannot be removed without a massive amount of work, but one or a few narrow train tunnels could be knocked through the wall between these rooms.

The doors probably can be changed to open out of the rooms.

His design goal is to try to fit in a small point to point railroad line, as a collection of shadow boxes connected by hidden tracks, in the style used by Canadian Andreas Keller down in Australia, see this web site: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~andkeller/page8.htm

If possible, he would love a chance for a sneak-by allowing continuous running over part of the layout for running in engines and display running.

He will be running H0 scale sized steam engines - 2-8-0s, 2-8-0s with short passenger trains (about 70’ long passenger cars), or sets of small four axle freight cars - about 36’ to 40’ long cars, normal train lengths about 5 feet, max train length about 6 feet. Desired curve ra

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Stein just treat each level and room as a separate layout I know you can do it. Trust me.

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I am not so concerned about the track plan for each scene - I am thinking about the track connecting each scene - like where or whether it would be sensible to put a helix, or how to fit a nolix into the room(s), or how to stack or stagger scenes on different levels in a sensible way.

A plain point to point layout with a nolix around three walls of the biggest room (storage 1) would at 3% incline build about 10" over three walls. It obviously could be stretched to 15" between levels by sending the train on a track out of the room, through the wall, through a largish loop in the second largest room (storage 2), and back to storage 1 to complete the nolix.

The disadvantage with the nolix approach is that 1/3rd of the loop would be out of view in another room, beyond a concrete wall, where you have to walk through two other rooms (a hallway and a laundry room) to get too, and that three out of four walls in the biggest room will be taken up by the constant climb.

Trying to push in a peninsula to increase run length inside the biggest room is frustrated by those 24" radius curves needing a heaping wide peninsula for a turnback curve, which would force benchwork along the walls to be extremely narrow and aisles to be fairly claustrophobic.

So that is clearly not the way to proceed either.

In this case, some kind of helix arrangement is probably indicated, possibly with part of the helix daylighted and scenicked (did I see something like that on Jack Gutsch’s Minneapolis and St. Louis layout in some article?) , and the rest of the helix accessible from a pit via a duckunder.

Mmm - about 14 foot of run len

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To me the ideal location for a helix would be in storage room 3. It would have to be built in the room and not built outside and moved in. But by bring the track in from the lower right of storage 1. You could build a oval helix in storage 3 and link 1 & 2 thru the common wall at the upper ends of the rooms away from the helix avoiding the post. That is if the walls are block and not cast.

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hi Stein,

two thoughts are on my mind.

First is a helix in another room, controlled by a camera; just two holes per level would do. I agree with you, the room is not large enough for a peninsula with a turn-back curve. Two aisles will take at least 5 ft, leaves you with three 18" wide shelves; the San Jacinto District footprint again.

A helix in the room, i would have never thought about your oval, still it seems a way to gain height without losing to much up front space. But, the next track , 5 inches above the other, has definitely not enough vertical clearance for building a scene. Unless you pull the visible track a foot forwards. Or am I wrong?

Important might be the grade. With a circle the grade will be about 2,7 %. Add drag for the curves and the effective grade is 32/R + 2,7 = 4%. In your case the effective grade will be less, depending on train-length between 3% and 3,5%

BTW, you wrote a nice posting to our young trainlover; to young to think i assume.

BTW is a 22" radius helix possible in the lower left corner?

Keep smiling

Paul

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steinjr:

Aren’t you usually the one with all the answers?

Sit. Meditate, grasshopper. It will come to you and you will, indeed, help your friend out.

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Agreed. It is very possible that this might very well prove to be the most sensible design - stick a helix (and perhaps some staging shelves as well) in the room labelled “Storage 2”.

I don’t know. Somewhere I have seen pictures of a helix daylighted on the side facing the room, with very narrow and not very high “transition scenes” - ie just the track, running past rock faces and trees.

One might conceivably be able to make scene like this being wide enough for a simple passing track scene.

5" track top to track top on level above - subtract 1" for subroadbed and track base - 4" - only one inch of headroom above the trains.

Don’t know if it still would work visually if you follow a train closely, but at least your train wouldn’t disappear from view for 30 or 45 feet (2 or 3 rounds of the helix), but just for 14-15" (3/4 of the way around the helix).

Good point. Locomotives will be heavy (new brass engines with good traction), trains fairly short - free rolling wheels - about 4 feet of

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hi Stein,

one concern about the shoebox design. Does your friend accept to go around the corner? Otherwise you will loose some length, a turntable tucked in the corner might not be possible.

Trainlength will be pretty much limited to 3 or 4 feet.

BTW my idea was to pull a visible track out every second turn or so. With 8 or 10 inches distance scenes above each other might be fun to watch.

Smile

Paul

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I think he will be just fine with scenes wrapping around a corner.

Ah - I hadn’t spotted that distinction. Good point. I’ll take these points back to my friend and see what he thinks about these ideas.

Btw - I finally found that picture that had been lurking somewhere in some back corner of my brain. Jack Gutsch’s Minneapolis and St. Louis, Great Model Railroads 2007, page 111.

A single turn helix with 5 1/2" railhead to railhead, and an opening in the fascia that is merely 3" high, showing a maybe 4-5" deep scene.Looks pretty good in the picture, and he reports that operators often stop what they are doing to watch as someone else’s train is ascending or descending the helix.

Smile,
Stein

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hi Stein,

great pic, it certainly is looking nice.

Paul

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hi svein and stein

just a quick drawing:

Paul

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Svein,

Well, since this is your NEW home, I would knock out the wall between storage 1 and 2. You could leave 12 to 18 inches of wall coming out from both sides and possibly the top, unless it will be just as easy and cheap to clear it all out. I think you would be much happier in the long run.

Barring that, how about a double door size opening between the two rooms in the center? Just cut it open, but don’t frame it up. This could be for installing a double door when you get ready to sell, or don’t, and just let the new owner install one. This opening could be used as the main layout / train access between the two rooms without putting a bunch of smaller holes in the wall for train tunnels. In this case, an oval helix could be used between the two rooms, but it might have to be in a figure-eight configuration, or lop-sided, as it goes through the doors.

Again, barring that, I think your idea of using storage 2 for the workshop, storage, staging, and helix is a good one.

As for having just one track running through a scene; I think that is limiting your main line run too much. I favor twice around the room single track main lines, and tastefully done, it works well. My current layout is that way. (Link in my signature at the bottom, if you want to look.)

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Hi Svein,

You could do away with a space eating helix or the possibly too steep grades of a nolix by using a trainelevator on one wall behind the scenes to get from one level to another. It could double as a staging yard too…

Naomi Immeker

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I am a do-it-yourself type person with experience in construction. But if I were in your shoes with that cast concrete wall, I would hire an engineering firm to see about removing the wall. It will be faster and safer in the long run, as they can make the determination if you need any additional supports in that area after removing the wall. I am thinking of a couple of steel pillars. Or maybe it wouldn’t be feasible to remove it.

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Hi Svein,

I have been following this thread for quite some time with great interest, as I am always keen to collect new and unusual ideas on how to set up a layout in tight spaces.

I like the idea of shadow boxes, each depicting an individual scene or theme very much, but find it very difficult to connect them properly. Shadow box design is very common in the UK, but they usually have 1 scene, with either a loop or fiddle yards to simulate operation.

Some time ago, I came across a multideck layout in not so big a room, which was very well made. Maybe it is food for thought for your own ideas.

You can view it here!

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hi Svein

of course,

I did not draw a separate upper level, the footprint will be the same.

Smile

Paul