Bucyrus - Thanks for your efforts in reviewing the ICC report and posting your summary, analysis, and comments on same. What you say about the inconsistencies makes a lot of sense to me.
One follow-up question regarding your “unique psychological cause” statement above: Is that assertion one that you saw or read someplace, or your own conclusion from reviewing the article in Trains and the ICC report
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
One follow-up question regarding your “unique psychological cause” statement above: Is that assertion one that you saw or read someplace, or your own conclusion from reviewing the article in Trains and the ICC report ? I’m not challenging it, either way - I’m just curious - and a little surprised - that this ‘syndrome’ might have gathered enough ‘official’ attention to result in a ‘finding’ to that effect, and if so, I’m curious as to the who/ what/ were/ when aspects of it - that’s all.
Thanks again.
Other than talk about the rule violation that was just commited there is nothing you can do .
I know an engineer could not stop before reaching the switch or the opposing train, but would you try to slow down? I am just wondering how an engineer would react to having the headlight of the train in the siding come on. It could just be a harmless mistake for some reason, or it could mean something serious.
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[quote user=“Bucyrus”]
I know an engineer could not stop before reaching the switch or the opposing train, but would you try to slow down? I am just wondering how an engineer would react to having the headlight of the train in the siding come on. It could just be a harmless mistake for some reason, or it could mean something serious.
[quote user=“wabash1”]
[quote user=“Bucyrus”]
I know an engineer could not stop before reaching the switch or the opposing train, but would you try to slow down? I am just wondering how an engineer would react to having the headlight of the train in the siding come on. It could just be a harmless mistake for some reason, or it coul
At one time, with variations depending on rule book and type of territory (ABS,CTC,dark etc), a displayed headlight meant the train in the siding hadn’t cleared the main track.
One book I have says the headlight will be displayed on bright while the train is moving into the siding. Once the train is clear of the main track, it will be dimmed while moving on the siding and extinguished once stopped clear of the main track.
Jeff
turning on the headlight means nothing, if something was wrong we have bad signals and would have already been talking to the opposing train, Besides on the track authority it says that we must meet train so/so before you can leave unless he cleared his warrent . if that was done then he already in the clear. things back then was differant but now a days its real simple. you dont go until the other train reports clear.
Actually, I overlooked something when I asked the question about what an engineer would do if approaching a meet and the train in the clear turned its headlight on. The reason for the question was in relation to the 1956 ATSF wreck at Robinson, NM, so I should have asked what an engineer’s response would be when running on the ATSF at that location, and in that timeframe.
I have been trying to analyze the details of how the engineer tried to communicate with the fireman, what he was trying to say, and how it confused the fireman to make the fatal error. I conclude that there are several different possible variations on how these events came together and what each man believed about what the other was doing.
why try and guess what the engineer did or did not do. It could have been that the engineer did not trust the guy he was working with, In that he turn on the light to see if he went up and did anything to the switch. and seeing that the switch was fine turned the light out. then the fireman for what ever reason threw the switch, I would be more likely to ask why was the fireman on the ground he should be on the engine. there is usually a 5 man crew on board at that time frame one of the switchmen should have been on the ground. When I’m working with someone i dont trust I turn the headlights on and off checking what he is doing.
Robinson was actually not near Onava. It was the first siding south of Springer, around MP 706-708, which is around MP 759.
The switches at Robinson, as was the case at all ends of sidings on the ABS territories, was indeed a high-star stand, but was equipped with a “Mechanical Switchman” spring switch buffer, which allowed a train leaving the siding to just buffer its way out without having to hand throw the switch to line out and then line it back for the Main after the rear end was on the Main. Spring switches were not easy to throw because of the hydraulic buffer and the big spring inside, and it WAS necessary to keep the switch plates graphited and all connections tightened.
Electric locks WILL indeed prevent the hand throwing of a switch in front of an approaching train. The signal circuits will keep the electric lock relay on the lock unit (SL-21A, 9B, etc) from energizing and releasing the lock feature IF the signal circuits are not in their NORMAL condition… “normal condition” meaning no track occupancies, no Signals Cleared into the block either direction at CTC control points, etc. Santa Fe and BNSF only used/use electric locks on CTC territories and around certain Interlockings everywhere I worked during my 42+ year Signal career. At any rate, unless the locking circuitry is defeated by vandalism, other damage, or misarranged circuitry, the switch can not be thrown until the full time has run (I’ve seen as long as 15 minutes), with the exception that if all circuits are clear of trains and no controlled signal is lined over that route, most switches do have a quick unlock circuitry that does not require the full time to run.
That should have read “Onava is around MP 759”.
I was working (engineering dept) in this area at the time of the Robinson siding ‘head on’. Robinson no longer exists but soon after ‘spring switches’ were installed there, and at several other sidings on the Northern Passenger line to eliminate the need to have someone throw a switch to exit a siding.
Not quite the same, but nevertheless consider these wrecks which involved loss of life and the engineer survived:
Ricky Gates, the engineer of the ConRail engines that ran through a switch and were then run into by the Amtrak Colonial at the Gunpowder River interlocking;
Brandon Bostian, the engineer of Amtrak 188 which derailed from excessive speed on a sharp curve at Frankford Jct. couple years ago (current on-going thread here about that).
PDN.
If you are referring to the 23rd Street colision, it had nothing to do with a misaligned switch. The underlying causes were (i) the leading train overshot a station and reversed directions while being approached by a following train (2) the motorman of the following train saw a signal far ahead of his train change to a more permissve indication and increased speed before passing the signal, apparently assuming that the signal had changed because the leading train was far ahead of it. In reality, the signal had changed because the leading train had backed out of the block towards the following train,