what would be the best switch machine to use for undertable mount
Hi, Doc, and welcome.
I notice that you kind of shotgunned the forums with questions about switch machines and how to install them. You’ll usually get better advice if you post all your questions in the same place so we can see what all your issues might be.
“Best” is a word that doesn’t fit too well in our hobby. Even “better” is a rarity. Mostly, we’re about preferences and what works in a given situation, and especially cost vs. time tradeoffs.
So, I’ll do my best (ok – there’s a case where the word IS useful) to clear some of this up for you.
No one brand is totally superior to the others. Most people prefer the Tortoise machine by Circuitron, although Atlas, Peco, and several others make under-layout mounts. I am personally a fan of Tam Valley Servos (you can read about them here).
If you’re using foam boards for your layout surface, you probably have some wooden framework beneath that. Switch machines should generally be fastened to this, and most allow for some offset (IOW, the machine doesn’t need to be DIRECTLY beneath the turnout). Failing in that, the simplest solution is to screw a runner of plywood between the joists where you need to place the switch machine and mount the machine to that.
Most commercial machines come with a fairly long piece of stiff wire (up to 6", depending on the brand), which is ample for most applications. Longer wires can be substituted, within reason. Piano wire, which is available at or through most music stores, can be substituted if necessary, so layout thickness generally isn’t a consideration.
Hope this helps.
I prefer Tortoise switch machines.
You can add lights (LEDs) to your control panel without a lot of complicated wiring. Just put a couple of LEDs in series with the motor wires.
You can also connect different manufacturers DCC stationary decoders to them and still use the same panel lights.
They use a motor for throwing the points, so it looks more realistic.
You can reuse them over and over because they are not tied to any one brand of turnout.
They also have two aux electrical contacts that can be used for just about anything you want.
I use the tortoise switch machines mostly. They are probably one of the more popular switch machines. I also like the manual throws made by Hump Yard Purveyance. http://www.humpyard.com/ These manual throws come in handy if you do not want to use electric throws. They are also very versatile.
Bill
Since I prefer one short shot of power to continuous draw, I have been going with twin-coil machines. Of that breed, the old KTM machines imported by Kemtron and others are the most suitable FOR ME. Not the emphasis. A lot of people DON’T like them, so they often show up on E-bay.
I don’t mount my switch machines under the benchwork unless they are mounted to the underside of a removable yard throat which can be moved to the workbench for maintenance. For turnouts on permanent layout surfaces, I use a remote throw mechanism (fishing line in tension, counterweighted on the far side of the points with a small weight that holds them in the normal position) and mount my machines on brackets between the joists just inside the fascia line. All I have to do to gain access is unscrew a piece of fascia.
If you got the impression that I prefer to work sitting on a chair in the aisle, and avoid spelunking under the benchwork, you got it in one…
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Several years ago I started using the NJ International switch machines - I don’t think they are made any longer - and have just continued to use them. Kemtron also had the same design which makes me believe they were made by the same company. I also used the Rix variety and they are just okay. The main reason I used them was that I had them on hand and couldn’t bring myself to pay for the Tortoise. The problem with the Kemtron style is that you need a special kind of undertable mount and they are not prototypical in their action because they ‘snap’ the points into position and they may require a capacitor discharge. The Tortoise has a stall motor and moves the points in a much more realistic fashion. All this said, I have decided to begin replacing the old style switch machines with the Tortoise. So I don’t know if I answered your question or not other than to point out some options - each with its own requirements and expense.
This is why I switched to servos, Tortoises just keep getting more expensive.
–Randy
I’ve used twin-coils in some parts of my layout, and probably will use them in others. However, for the newer front-and-center turnouts I prefer Tortoises. They have a beautiful slow motion throw, and they have contacts beneath them which can be used to control turnout-position signals and to power frogs.
But, as has been mentioned, they are pretty expensive relative to other options.
[#welcome]
Welcome aboard.
I originally built my layout with above the table twin coils, but as I have been updating one section at a time I have been changing them to Tortoise. I currently have a mixture.
I currently have Tortoise switch machines and one manual throw. The tortoise units work very well, but for me, they were difficult to install. I don’t get around as well as I once did and the installation proved frustrating at times; however, they were installed after the track work was completed which complicates the installation of these switch machines. They have worked flawlessly for about a year.
Wayne
Randy, You are so right. I just priced the Tortoise and I about choked. $19.95 on the Circuitron web site. However, they can be had for around $16.00 on Ebay plus shipping. I promise I wasn’t going to say this, but it is an example of how expensive this hobby is becoming for the average person.
As long as we understand that, almost without exception, the hobby is also getting more expensive for the manufacturers and importers, it just becomes a simple decision about what to buy…or not.
Nobody has mentioned the Fast Tracks switch machine. I believe they offer a mechanical/manual device made out of laser-etched laminate, and another? Lost track of them, but it would be worth investigating at their site.
Crandell
Crandell,
Those are the Bullfrog Manual Controls that sell for $6, unassembled. Their site also has a couple of excellent “how to” videos on their construction and installation. Gonna be ordering one to see how it works.
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/BullFrog-Manual-Turnout-Control-s/2087.htm
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/BullFrog-Manual-Turnout-Control-s/2087.htm
Wayne
Actually, things in general tend to get more expensive over time. It’s the principle of economic escalation. The issue is whether the price for a particular item or group of items rises faster than inflation in the general economy.
Back to the topic at hand, if getting under the layotu is a problem, and you want remote control of the turnouts, servos are ideal. They are small enough to mount on top of the layotu and easily hide in scenery. Much smaller than a tortoise and since you can add whatever linkage you want, it’s not like having the switch machine right on the turnout like Atlas snap-track. A Z bend in the connecting wire will go from the top of the servo down to bench level (we’re talking a little over an inch high here) and give some spring to the action. The servo controller actually sets endpoints, so you don;t stall the servo or push the turnout out of alignment. With an overall size of about 1.25" long by .5" wide by about 1.125" high, you can hide them under any sort of structure short of a one-holer outhouse.
–Randy
Hi,
Somewhere is just a choice, and of course the quantity of motors You need.
Manual device like Britains use are handmade design to move the points which cost nearly nothing.
Blue point of New Rails model is such a device but ready to use; see the Walthers catalog for information.
I prefer to use motorised device to move turnouts points.
I didn’t have a lot of background whith solenoid switch machine because I really don’t like the shock of the “snap” on the points of my turnouts.
But a lot of people have had very goog results whith them.
I use Tortoise and mostly Hankraft display motors; both are stalling motors, Tortoise offer auxilliary contacts, Hankraft need an homemade support for them.
Both are relatively easy to install and don’t need to much adjustement especialy the Hankraft motor whith his 360°rotation.
Since a few years, some modelers use servo motors to move points, but they need a driver such as the ones offer by Tam Valley Depot.
A recent article published in MR show how to modify servo motors to make them like a stalling one, you need to discard the electronic board and use two 330ohms resistance; I have get it a try and it works well for my Nscale turnouts but nobody knows about the live of the modified servo’s.
All the motorized devices are quite expensive, Tortoise could be found around 14$ when buy by twelve. (www.trainworldonline.com is a good discount address)
Hankraft display motor is very affordable if ordered in great quantities ( www.hmimotors.com)
Servo motors are found everywhere on the web, Ebay, www.conrad.com and some chinese site offer some servos for an around 5$ but You need a driver, like the one’s by Tam Valley depot.
Solenoid devices could be found for under 9$
Tortoise and Hankcraft could be controlled by DCC but need a decoder.
Servo’s whi
Marc,
I have around 70 Hankscrafts installed. What are you using the contacts for? Check out the Builders in Scale site to get some wiring ideas to get rid of those extra swtches (first photo) with your hankscraft motors.
I use a bipolar supply with a DPDT to throw the motor and give me a frog polarity change w/o the switches . Life is so much easier…One speaker wire goes from the panel to the switch and motor. One wire of the pair is to throw the motor and the other is for the frog. .For indication of the which way the turnout is thrown the toggle on the switch panel can indicate that for you. Check it out on the site
http://www.builders-in-scale.com/bis/sm/schm-1001.html.
I have a friend who is using your set-up. lots more work
Just a suggestion,
Guy
Guess it’s just me but having the switch contacts right at the turnout seems to be less work and less wiring than running a wire all the way back to the control panel. Plus 2 wires to the same block or power district the turnout is in.
–Randy
rrinker:
This is why I switched to servos, Tortoises just keep getting more expensive.
–Randy
Caboose Hobbies has them regular priced at $15.80 each. Around Christmas Time or other sales it sometimes drops to as low as $13.00. I found 15 tortoises at a swap meet for $10 a piece. I can honestly say I have never paid more than $16.00 for a Tortoise. I have purchased more than 70+ (40 for a club and 30+ for my home layout.)
Shopping around really does pay off!
I get 6 servos for $13.
Controls run about $10 per but that includes the buttons and LEDs, so if you compare cost per turnout, you need to add the price of LEDs and a toggle to the Tortoise. I skip the DCC decoder on the Tortoise side because I’m skipping the frog relay on the servo side (not exactly comparable as the frog relay is about $5). My smallest loco can creep over my unpowered frogs just fine, even though I wired each and every one before installing the turnout, so the wires currently just hang there unconnected until I see stalling issues.
–Randy