When main line traffic has a drop off into a facing point turnout, how do they do it? I have heard of the “flying switch” but is there another way?
BB
That is why you need either a dedicated local switcher or a runaround track. Can’t be done otherwise. (Well, if you were to set out from the yard with the cars coupled to the pilot, and kept speeds down, you could do it.)
I think the engine needs to run-around the back part of the train on the nearest siding and then use the end of the train to drop-off cars on the spur.
Jim
A ‘flying switch’ really is not a do-able thing in a model. The prototype can do it as there is ‘mass’ in the freight car. The engine tows the car to the switch, the brakeman pulls the ‘pin’ and the engine accelerates away from the car. Another brakeman on the ground aligns the switch for the spur after the engine passes. The car then drifts into the spur. EVERYONE performing this operation has to be on their toes - and many railroads frown on it. With our models, a runaround track is almost always needed if you need to make a facing point spot.
Jim
It depends…
When is this?
Is this on a Class 1 road, a Regional, a shortline or an industrial?
Why is the movement needed?
Where is the connection in regard to other facilities? (Like, where’s the nearest loop to do some running round… or trailing connection to a spur… which would allow the cars to be set out to wait until they can be moved later…)
What other traffic is about?
What are the time constraints on the move?
Is the car delivery urgent… has it been delayed?
How many locos are pulling this train?
What’s the grade approaching the facing connection?
Who’s looking?
Is there a long length of rope available?
Can the cars be taken further up the line, juggled and brought back… by the same locos or another train/ (The time issue comes in here). (So does distance).
Fly shunting was usually banned and now is almost universally prohibited - because of the risks of derailing the back axle of the loco and splitting the road under the car(s) to be switched. Also whizzing a car or cars into a connection could have problems of staying on the track if the curve was sharp, the track poor or any other risk. Again the cars would have to be braked to a stop on the handbrakes alone… people tend to get upset if you run a string of cars out the end of a blind spur. (Better still… if the stop block is really solid you can stop the car(s) and unload most of the contents in one go… especially if it’s coal or an aggregate).
okay…
So you can run round before you get to the connection and propel the car(s) (slowly) ahead of the loco or whole train.
This can be done using remote control with the controller walking ahead on the ground.
In earlier times a brake man would ride on top of the lead car. For preference he had an air brake valve to hand… otherwise someone watched for hand signals from the last car of the cut and/or a high point (the tender) on the loco and relayed them to the
David, A clear and consise reply as usual. However, you are WAAY ahead of me in operational concepts. I am just now laying the track and wonder how I will operate it.
FYI, the plan is Alain Rices “hollow run RR” from a book published by Kalmbach. It is simple, but can be tricky.
Thanks to all,
BB
If the rail slopes down into the facing point switch, you could also do a static drop:
Set the handbrake.
Uncouple the engine, and pull past the switch.
Line switch.
Release handbrake, and the car rolls right in.
Of course the physics of this are hard to scale down. Most likely the car would be set out for the approprate local crew to handle.
Nick
Really? I’m pleased if it is “clear and concise”… actually I’m amazed. But I try to get people to think… that’s how I trained Tower men I worked with. If you think it through you remember it… and can develop it further.
Alain Rice is probably (sensible) setting the thing up with some problems. If you work through the ideas you will end up with a more interesting layout that you can do something with. Too many layouts get built, rapidly become boring and get junked.
PART of the trick is to “think outside the box” (Boy do I hate that expression)! However… if you think of your layout as a box of railroad taken out from the whole thing and then think about what’s going on around the box for a few miles… plus the wider world for some things… then you can begin to develop your ideas of what will happen inside the box.
With your switching example…
Where are the cars come from is a start… far away/near? Same road, another road? any road?
What cars? Specialised? Any of a type? One type?
One load or a number?
Loads in, out or both?
Every day, some days, occasional days?
One day in same day out… or?
Pick up on same day or…? (You may have to drag cars out, put the incoming cars in and put the original cars back in on top of them to be collected later).
Is the system “Just in time” or warehousing… in a warehouse or the cars?
What happens if the spur is blocked?
What happens if the cars are delayed or diverted?
That should get you going for a start.
Oh yes…
Has anyone ever heard of “poling”? Ages ago, when the “flying switch” was still legal, RR’s also used “poling”. Each loco carried a pole, and had “poling pockets” on each corner of the loco/tender. Most freight cars had “poling pockets” as well. If a train needed to pick up a car on a facing point switch, they would drop the train, pass the car, put the pole between the loco and car (on the adjacent track), and the pole (pushed by the loco) would push out the car. Needless to say, this was extremely dangerous, if the pole slipped out of the pocket (like when the car is nearing the turnout, and the pole would be “cross cornered”), it would go flying; if the pole broke, because it was under so much pressure, sometimes it would shatter and crewmen usually got hurt or even killed. Trains could also use the poling technique whenever they needed to push one or 2 cars on an adjacent track without having to go to all the trouble of getting on “the right track”.
Can’t think of how this might be used to spot a car on the facing point switch, it might be used in conjunction with the “flying switch” manuever.
Nowadays, RR crews do trailing point moves, and leave the facing point moves for the return trip (when they would be trailing point moves). Either that, or (if near a passing track), they’ll do a run around. Most of the time, if it’s a customer that only gets 1 or 2 cars a week, the return trip method is employed. If it’s a medium size customer, the RR may set out cars for that customer in a yard so the train delivering those cars will end up with a trailing point move. If it’s a large customer that gets like 100+ cars a week, the RR will usually build a run around track nearby (and probably a switching lead as well) so the main doesn’t get tied up with crews working that customer. Close to where I work, NS serves a pair of feed mills that receive probably 100 or so grain cars per week. These were built next to an existing branchline. NS built a long passing track (over a mile), w
Your right. This could be use to pick up cars from a facing point, but not for dropping off.
If you just have a small oval of track, just run around and come up from behind! If you have a large layout, build a run around.
I liked the rope idear, ceptin I’d prefer war rope. First round sez that’s illegul too.
Another idea is to run push pull. One local I worked, served both facing and trailing point industries, and there was no run-around on the line. We had an engine on each end, and simply switched ends to serve each industry.
Nick