When I first joined TCA, I went to a meet with 2 TCA members. I liked what I saw and then joined. The two members and friends signed for me.
Why can;t you do that at York? As I understand it, York is not considered a meet so you can;t go as a guest and then join if you want.
I t seems that TCA exists only for York. What would happen if York ceased to be, end of TCA.?
My point is, why don;t they try and get more members, or do they have enough?
I would think dealers would rather have the meet exposed to everyone so they could possibly sell more.
Dave.
Dave, check out my response over on this topic. I think I have picked up on some of your concerns.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22917
You can go to York as a guest once. You have to be the guest of a TCA member, though, and can’t just walk in.
It is possible to join the TCA at York. I did just that last April. I printed an application from the TCA website and had two OGR forum members that I had met sign the application for me. I took the signed application with me to York. Waited in a special new members line until it was my turn to pay. Then I paid the meet (yes, York is a meet) entrance fee and my wife and I were given badges. We spent the next several hours perusing the halls.
I don’t think anyone ever said it was impossible to get into York, especially if you come prepared. The thing is that the average person can’t just walk up, pay and get in. You have to know somebody in the club first, as was pointed out by both Ben and Greg. Are these rules outdated? Do they hinder our hobby? Would more people become interested if they had easy access to such extravaganzas?
Most of the TCA bigshots are living back in the 50’s and have their heads in the sand. The rules need to be changed if they expect younger people to join. It’s a fact that most young people today don’t want to be hassled with a lot of rules and regulations so it’s a big turnoff for them. I like Mike Wolf’s idea about York, just open the halls up and let everyone in.
pax[C):-)]
Rather than chase everyone over to the other topic to see my comments, I have brought a copy over here.
Joe, I agree, it may indeed be time to dispense with all of the nonsense and tight rules, and open up.
I think we should make a distinction between collecting and accumulating. A collector, as in the C in TCA, is someone who seeks out specific pieces, and buys them to place on a shelf. Always mindfull of their value and condition, a true collector’s trains are not toys, as they are never played with. They are artifacts of a time long passed, a memory of what once was.
At one time back in the early 80’s Lionel tried to create new collectable trains. I was a collector then. When the market became flooded, I gave up, and turned into an accumulator.
I think the days of the true collector are nearly gone. There are a few purist holdouts, but the manufacturers have pretty much returned to making toys and scale models. Beautiful, fun and expensive to say the least, but not collectable.
The TCA has a real dilema. If they wanted to remain true to their founding principles, they would throw all the manufacturers and dealers out of York, or at least segregate them in such a way that the public had access as well. Simply reserve a few halls for members only, and let everyone into the rest. Anything less is a disservice to the hobby.
The flip side for the TCA is to grow and change with their membership. This may be what they are trying to do at York. The problem is that some of the “old boy” rules are still in place, namely the entire membership application process.
Is the TCA only for true collectors, or is it for everyone?
While I don’t always see eye to eye with Mike, on this subject I agree. Not only is it in his company’s best interest, it is in everyone in this hobby’s best interest. The TCA is stuck in a rut, and firmly rooted in Pennsylvania. No other scale of model trains behaves this way.
If I were to figure out the cost to drive out there and back, lodging, food and the entry fee just to join, I could have a nice addition to my layout.
I went to the TCA national when it was in the twin cities and there was allot of stuff there but very high prices.
Now with ebay, I guess I don’t feel I need to attendent york. Even our own train show in Woodbury mn is now mainley HO and it used to be almost all pre and post war. Not even any parts people there for lionel anyway.
dave.
I didn’t know that you lived in the Twin Cities Dave. That’s exactly how I feel too. By the time I pay to travel and stay, there’s nothing left to buy trains with. Furthermore with the trains that I like to buy these days, I can find more than I can afford on eBay.
I haven’t been to the Woodbury show in years. The Century College show is much better, and the 3 rail sellers know that. Some still do both shows, and there is still a lot of HO and N at Century. I think there’s at least one parts dealer that goes to that show.
The sign in and probationary procedure was created to maintain integrity of the club members.
I understand that John, but to me the trains have lost all of their collectable value. I no longer have any use for a club that requires integrity in its members, as I’m not into trains for the money.
The York show is run by only one branch of the TCA. That branch, the “Eastern Division” is in PA and has the most members. That’s why they don’t move around the country. They have the show near where they live and where there is an enormous mult-building facility that can hold it.
The TCA itself does move around the country, that’s the convention referred to in an above post.
It is Eastern Division which sets the rules for York. You guys need to lighten up on TCA and instead address your complaints to the people who run run the show.
Big Boy, the TCA’s roots are about vintage trains, many of which are still quite valuable. You may be an operator who doesn’t care about collector value but there are many people who do. The rules are voted on by this majority. There is a lot of fraud in this market such as reproduction rare shells, restorations offered as origionals, etc. The TCA board does everything they can to protect buyers.
“I understand that John, but to me the trains have lost all of their collectable value. I no longer have any use for a club that requires integrity in its members, as I’m not into trains for the money.”
Some folks appear to have absolutely no clue regarding what collecting toy trains (or anything else) is all about. To equate everything with dollars/value is so far off the mark that it would almost be laughable if it wasn’t so darn sad.
Allen, not sure who you’re pointing your comment at. I’m not even a member of the TCA anymore. Too big and too commercialized. I’m just stating the TCA’s reasoning. You need to put yourself in the shoes of a serious collector before making statements like this.
I have a moderate size postwar collection and the dollar value is meaningless to me. However, if I decided to sell it off at a meet, I certainly wouldn’t want any Tom, ***, or Harry off the street handling it marring the finish, bending trim, or blasting his mouth off at $900 Wabash F-3’s,. etc. And no, I won’t sell a Wabash cheap because $900 is outrageous to some. I’ve been in situations like this and they are no picnic.
The TCA rules were voted by members. If a guy wants the rules changed, write a letter to the prez. It’'ll go through a review chain and a vote will come up on an annual ballot. It’s that simple. If a guy don’t like TCA rules, there are Greenburg and GATS shows where anything goes. They are open to the general public too.
I have been a member of the TCA for over 22 years. That is longer than anyone else involved in this conversation, that I’m aware of. Please don’t try to tell me I don’t understand what it is all about. I have been to 4 national conventions, and served on the committee for one.
This is a dying organization, and the proof of that is published on page 5 of the Quarterly, in the form of a growth chart spanning all 50 years of the club’s existance.
20 years ago, I said train collecting was a game of musical chairs, when the music stops, you better know where your trains are going, because chances are there will be nobody who wants to buy them from your estate. The music is still playing, but for how long?
The Kids Club should have been formed 20 years ago.
The writing has been on the wall for a while now. People schlep their trains to shows, lay them out on the table priced according to the latest guide, then turn around and pack them back up, unsold. How many guide books are going to sell with lower prices in them? This is where collecting is headed.
Without new members this whole pyramid is going to collapse. Losing someone like me is no big deal, as I was never much of a buyer in terms of gross dollars anyway. When I quit, it will be more of a symbolic gesture, and the loss of a number. The question is what happens when members die off at a faster rate than replacements can be found? Who buys the trains???
By the way Allan, the fact that you have co-authored price guides in the past, speaks volumes.
If you’ll excuse me now, I have a will to review and sign.
Elliot: I live out in southwest minnesota, 15 miles south of Marshall where schwans ice cream is made. It is a 3 hour drive for me to get to the cities and the last few years all the HO and N have just dominated the twin cities shows, and prices are not low at all.
I agree with you, ebay is the place for me.
Sioux Falls had a show last year but not much there and what was was list price or more.
Also I do know the value of a collectable lionel or I still would not have a mint 1937 700e on its display plate in my train room. Anything less that that is now toy trains to me vs scale.
If all of you knew what elliot built in the mall of america you would respect him much more for what he knows, can do in the hobby of model railroading.
dave.
As an O gauger following this post, I would like to weigh in as well. I’m gonna have to side with Big_Boy on this one. I 'm not at all concerned about the collectors value of a Wabash F-3, let alone ever purchasing one. Pretty much, if it isn’t scale and equipped with TMCC, I won’t even look at it. Just wondering how many more are out there like me. Times are a changing.[:)]
About 3 years ago I took the plunge and joined TCA,. This was after the idea of getting 2 sponsors turned me off to the organization the year before. However I guess I wanted to try it again (Perhaps dreams of going to York or something).
The first thing I found out was that 2 member thing is a joke, not because I couldn’t find 2 members, but I found too many who never knew me but wanted to sign me for me. This included the Current TCA president who didn’t know me from anyone else on the Internet. Sure I appreciated his offer, but where is the organizational integrity in that?
Next I started receiving the publications, the train quarterly is an OK magazine, but nothing compared to CTT or OGR. As for the monthly magazine, it heads right for the trash can as soon as I glance at the meeting minutes, the rest of it is pointless, I really don’t need to be reminded every issue that a R is required to be stamped on reproductions. And as for the classifieds, they are nothing in this day and age. Perhaps 20 years ago they were a great source of train, but eBay and the internet has done away with their value.
I’m not saying that I regret being a member of the TCA, but its stuck way far in the past and is becoming less and less important in today’s train world and needs to change to survive. I think in some ways my K-Line club membership is more valuable than my TCA membership.
Thanks for your support Dave. I think Allan and I checked out each other’s credentials on our last arguement.
In the end, I’m just glad I never poured a lot of money into the high buck stuff. I’ve always been a quantity not quality kind of guy. I buy what I like, mostly new, and current production. I always look for bargains, but then who doesn’t?
I’ve taken my, now, 12 year old son, to the Century College show a number of times. We like to play a game when we go. The game is simple and fun. How many cars can we get for $100? Usually we get 3 or 4. The game is meant to teach him the value of a dollar, and how to shop and prioritize, while maintaining a budget.
I used to be a Lionel purist, but when the scale craze hit, all bets were off. Now I buy any of the manufacturers products, as long as they fit with the theme of my railroad. The theme is simple, modern (diesels only), TMCC, and scale. The way the real railroads operate these days, road names don’t matter anymore.
When empty boxes sell for hundreds of dollars, in my mind somebody has lost touch with reality, and I don’t think it’s me, cause I sure wouldn’t.
People thought I was crazy when I placed the winning bid of $5, in an auction on an empty box for a 6512 cherry picker, 20 years ago at a TCA meet. The person I was bidding against was, none other than, the late Don Herman, who went on to become president of the TCA some years later. I had the car in my collection, so when I saw the box come up, I bid $1. Don said $2, I went for $3, Don came back $4. I took $5, and everyone laughed. Don gave up, admitting later, that he didn’t even own the car.
I say these cold and har***hings about the TCA and York, because that is what I see happening. I am not an insider, nor am I a total outsider. I am an observer, and I get the impression that the true insiders have lost their objectivity, and are in denial.
Those who love it and attend regularly, are welcome to enjoy thei