All,
I am fed up with all this harassment from Police both railroad and civil .I am not on railroad property and I have a camera and just want to be left alone and do my thing. I am a retired railroad officer and photography is my hobby and I do respect railroad property.BUT I am on public property here in San Antonio, Tx and I get harassed almost every time I do my thing. I am going to the city councl about this I am trying to get a spot for all railfans to view and photograph the Union Pacific like they have in Flatonia Texas 100 miles east of San Antonio. TELL ME WHAT IS HAPPINING IN YOUR AREA (IN REGARDS TO HARASSMENT) AS I WILL USE THE FACTS ONLY TO TALK TO THE CITY COUNCIL and I hope to get this setteled…Did the terriorists win I BELIEVE THEY DID… LETS NOT SIT ON THIS…HOW ABOUT THIS NEW JERSEY!!!
Mike Wikman San Antonio
Locally, my group watches CP trains at a public crossing on the south side of Milwaukee and we are not bothered. the local RR policeman knows us by sight and the local police have little concern. The only entity that shows some concern is the private security detail hired to protect a local water facility.
However I have been ordered off public property in Waukegan IL while photographing Metra trains at the depot there (this was the UP), and we were similarly ordered not to photograph Amtrak and Metra in the depot in Chicago
In general the UP takes the position that standing on public property is no excuse if you are capturing the image of their property – sort of like some Native American tribes objected to having their photograph taken because it stole their spirit.
These are people trying to do their jobs and follow orders. If the orders seem idiotic, no argument there, but the source of the idiocy is in the suites in Omaha or New York City, not the guy you are dealing with.
Dave Nelson
In my area, CN generally doesn’t care with some researvations about being on their property. That’s reasonable enough. A friend of mine was at the VIA station watching trains and two police officers from the Niagara Regional Police were interested in knowing why they were there when the station was closed. That was reasonable enough too because there has been vandalism going on so broken windows and such was on the police’s mind likely. After the police were told they were interested in watching trains, one of the police officers noticed something in the back of my friend’s car and asked about it. He showed him that it was some HO scale SD70MAC and some railcars. One of the police officers thought that was really cool and asked more questions about the hobby.
It all depends I guess on how present yourself appearance wise and how you address the questioners. Me personally, I never been stopped by a police officer before except one wanting to know if a specific train went through yet.
No problems here in the middle of nowhere. MOST people here recognize that we are far down the list of potential targets and live and act accordingly. If you’re not on RR propert, it’s OK. There is one exception. Up at the diamond of NS and CSX in St.Joe, a farmer living nearby harrasses everyone he sees. He yells at them to leave and says he is calling the RR cops, even though he knows you’re on public property. I would ignore him, but I have heard he scares off many others.
Me no ether!
This got addressed in a recent law enforcement and railfans thread which I won’t repeat.
In Manchester, Georgia, there’s a nice platform- put up by the town, I believe- which overlooks the CSX junction between Atlanta, points south and points west. They have a scanner built in there set to a timer and a really neat set of maps up for reference. The local cops have plenty to do elsewhere and the crews on the trains going past (I think it’s a crew change point) seem to enjoy having their pictures taken.
Your idea of setting up a train watcher spot, Hogger, is a good one. I think the railroads are more interested in maintaining good relations with local governments and a joint effort between the two would probably be a welcome idea. (Of course, it would probably be a really welcome idea if it didn’t cost the railroad or the government anything- you can’t argue with free as a cost.)
Personally, I’ve never run into a “railroad policeman” in person… I know they are certified (Academy trained) peace officers, at least in my working area of Alabama. (I am a sheriff’s deputy in a rural Alabama county.) I’ve heard that they are mostly investigators who do theft investigations.
Seems to me that the TRAINS webcam and trainwatchers site in Rochelle got set up by the local government and TRAINS. Maybe some of the TRAINS folks could tell us what kind of coordination they did with the railroads in setting up the site?
Erik
In my area (south & southwest suburbs of Chicago) I haven’t had any problems since I tend to stay on public roadways, grade crossings and overpasses. The only time that I was ever approached by a special agent was at Barr Yard and I obviously was in a place that I shouldn’t have been. After the usual warning, he was good enough to advise me about approximate property lines and other limits when I asked about it.
A few weeks ago there was a L&N Historical Socity convention in Memphis and the town was covered with train nuts. I went to the street crossing just east of the bridges over the Mississippi River and we were not harassed at all. I saw one RR Police car and a couple of City cars and no one stopped to ask what was going on. I live in NE Arkansas and as long as you stay on public property you are OK. I asked a UP cop how they feel and he said trains with more dagenerous goods in them will be watched more closely.
Believe it or not, I never get bothered, and I railfan in the general Philly/NYC area!
Crews wave to me and matt. deshler is a a great spot to meet other railfans.We are out here in the country so taking train pics really isnt a problem. we follow the take pictures leave footprints rule.
stay safe
joe
Here, I can get pretty close (I meant close…I could touch them), but someother people that I know can bearly take a picture with out drawing some suspcison, it’s kinda weird.
Here in the New York City area, the MTA is again pushing to ban any photography in the subways as a safety and security measure.
I’m not trying to stir up a debate here on the board, just alerting anyone who would like to offer comments for or against this proposed ruling (some may feel that a sucessful ban here could be the precedent for additional photo bans at other transit authorities or railroads.)
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/rules/proposed.htm has more detail, and how to contribute your voice/opinion to the process.
You may also want to look at the detailed writings and links to news articles posted at http://nycsubway.org/
There will be no public hearings on this issue and there is a January 10th deadline for submitting any comments to the board.
Paul F.
Hogger - where in San Antonio are you photoing from? I didn’t have any problems last time I was down there, except near the UP maintenance facility near the Big Red bottling plant. One of the workers said we were on RR property (I don’t think we actually were) and we graciously moved.
As for around the Chicago area, I haven’t had any problems to date with either the local cops or the rr cops. I’m sure it’ll happen sooner or later.
Mike
when i have visited the U S A i have i have had no problems…to ban taking photographs is just plain dumb…dont you know that terrorists would use a mobile phone to photograph a facility and transmit the photo directly to mr bin laden…train fans are the greatest resource the railroads could use to protect their property as they seam to know every detail of the railroads…reminds me of when i was on vacation in vietnam…when i tried to photograph the saigon railway station the police stood infront of me…i still got the photo by asking my wife to stand infront of the station…peter
…in light recent national and international events that have underscored the need for heightened security measures throughout the transit system, a reinstatement of a prohibition that existed until the early 1990’s against photography, filming, and video recording in transit facilities and on transit conveyances without prior authorization except for members of the press… Consideration was given to restricting photography, etc. of sensitive areas only. However it was felt that a less restrictive approach would not yield the necessary security enhancements and given the nature of the activities in question enforcement of a rule which required law enforcement personnel to make a judgement of the precise subject matter being photographed would be highly problematic. – NYS Register, November 24, 2004, pp. 15-16.
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/register/2004/nov24/pdfs/rules.pdf
Its this last statement about making it easier to enforce that got me thinking…what if a class 1 railroad took the same stance that ANY photo of their equipment was subject to the rule regardless of intent or purpose? This does stipulate while on their property or on their trains, but is it really that difficult to see how it can be applied to public property near facilities?
Again, my point is not to create a long string of notes, but to signal a concern that this could be the first step in a long line of “no photos, no exceptions” rules. And, while I mainly model the steam era (not dependant on my photographing my modeling prototypes), I still like to take photos of my trips into the city and the occasional railfan jaunt. I’d rather not be hassled, and I would be happy to provide ID to a police officer upon his or her request (ie cooperate, but not waive my 4th amendment rights because of a “photo ban”).
There is a group of us fans that watch trains at the Fullerton Amtrak station every weekend with no problems.However,I know several fans who have been chased off the platform at the Riverside station.I don’t know if this is a Metrolink rule or a city prohibition.
The best thing to do…Take Photo…Then get the HELL OUT FAST.
Have a nice day[:)].
Just like the other forum member says…Leave foot prints and leave!..FAST.
This is to mostly reply to Mike Wikman.
My wife and I visited San Antonio in late September this year. She let me off the leash for a few hours, and I went down to the area near Tower 105, Brazos Street & Frio Road. I was on public property, and all I bagged was a Union Pacific hi-railer. A San Antonio police car passed me without stopping. Two days later I photographed an eastbound freight on the ex SP line through San Antonio north of the downtown area, and nobody bothered me.
A week later in Dallas my wife let me off the leash again. I rode an phtographed the McKinney Avenue trolley - no problems there, railfans are aways welcome. I photographed the DART Light Rail and the Trinity Rail Express trains fromUnion Station and the DART Light Rail and the Union Pacific from the Houston Street bridge south of Dallas Union Station. A few police cars passed me on the Houston Street Bridge they ignored me. I photographed a Union Pacific intermodal train crossing the Trinity River from the Trinity river Greenway; again no problems. I photogrphed the Trinity Rail Express and Amtrak in the Fort Worth intermodal Tranportation Center. A cop on K 9 patrol walked right past me he didn’t say a word.
Now about my own area - Washington, DC, Maryland, and Virginia. No problems. In all cases I was on public property. I was on a sidewalk in Manassas, VA photographing Amtrak’s Cardinal. A cop drove past, and he waved to me. A railfan friend and were at a grade crossing waiting for an NS freight when a deputy sheriff drove by, and asked us what we were doing. We told him we were photogrphing trains so he wished us luck.
My experience seems to track the expeiences of most of the others who have responded; they haven’t had any problems watching or photographing trains. When you speak to your city council about railroad photography point out two things:
- There are no laws against photogrphing anything (except Military facilities) from public
property. You might refer
I travel out that way every few months, and I was questioned once at Washington DC. It was the day of the big northeast blackout in August '03, and I had just arrived on a train from BWI. There were some interesting private cars on the tail end of one of the LD trains at the station, but I was challenged by an Amtrak employee before I get out to take a photo of them. [I did have a return Amtrak ticket to BWI, but that did not give me ‘platform permission’ and it was well over an hour before departure].
Another time, earlier this year, I was taking pictures of the abandoned bridges at the north end of what used to be Potomac Yard, along with the CSX mainline. Some guy on a bike kept circling around and called someone on his cell phone. The rest of the country was “code yellow” but the Washington DC area was “code orange” at the time. The bike guy never said anything to me directly.
As for my home area, as espeefoamer says there are a bunch of folks who hang out at Fullerton. It’s a no hassle place to railfan (although you might stay out of the way of this one guy at the end of the platform…he’s kinda territorial). I’ve never been hassled in all the different places I’ve gone in L.A. or Orange County.
In some places it’s the danger of some of the neighborhood thugs, not the police or security, so you keep your eyes and ears wide open in some areas or skip them altogether.
Not a problem here in Tampa, Florida. CSX crews are usually friendly. The advice given above is a good one. Since Florida is the so-called “SUNSHINE STATE”, you must also keep aware that our nice climate also attracts creeps and thugs.
When I railfanned from a public spot, I always stayed near my car. I’ve never been threatened by a thug when railfanning, but knowing they’re out there is helpful.
I learned from my mother at a young age to take the time to “casually” look around your immediete area at least once a minute.
Know your surroundings so you aren’t surprised!!