The 11 Myths of Model Railroading - Myth #8

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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The 11 Myths of Model Railroading

#1 – Zero maintenance layout (2200 sq ft layout) – You can’t maintain a large layout by yourself
#2 – DCC 8 amp boosters and welding engine wheels of the engine derails
#3 – Track Cleaning – Never again!
#4 – Reverse Loops – Using a toggle switch with DCC
#5 – Not removing ties on flex track
#6 – IDC connectors - 3M scotch locks/Suitcase connectors for track wiring-NEVER
#7 - The Rolling Stock Truck Tuner tool & why do you need one
#8 – Soldering Track Joints
#9 – Homasote Expansion vs Wood
#10 – DCC and you have to modify the turnouts – YOU DON”T
#11 – Homasote Cost – making a mess when cutting – You Don’t have to make dust when cutting

PLW the MRR Myth Busters – #8 - The Myth is:

You will get track kinks if you solder all of your joints

I have soldered all of my joints and have had no kinks in my 2800 feet of track. It has been down now for 5 years and if I were to have problems they should have showed up by now!

I use is 7/16 OSB (Orientated Strand Board) for my subroadbed. Now I know that this just goes against the norms but then again I have had no problems. I also use Homasote on top of the OSB and then use cork under most of the mainlines and passing sidings.

The OSB is painted on the top and sides with the moisture barrier on the bottom. The Homasote is also painted. Now why don’t I have the normal problems that others are having?

Could it be the OSB (due to the large wood chips with the grain set at many different angles?) Maybe the OSB expanding in all directions instead of just one as with dimensional lumber.

But the main thing to remember is that it is working. I run a dehumidifier in the summer and try to keep the humidity below 70% and in the winter I try and keep it higher than 50%.

The real answer is controlling the Humidity in the train room!

All of t

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It doens’t matter how many axes or planes of expansion there are - trackwork will suffer if there’s movement.

I generally enjoy reading your busting of myths, even when I don’t argree with your presumptions or results. Since you only cite layout as evidence of the myths’ revocation, it would only take other layout suffering the “myth” to set the score even again, and only two to reinstate it.

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i used to have a garden layout and over time we learnt to leave a fingernails width between the tracks if we were laying track in cooler weather. if we didnt the whole lot would buckle on a hot day. if you think about it, a 2% expansion over 2m of track is already 4mm thats nearly half a cm!!

i have also seen exhibiton layouts where people have soldered the track to copperclad sleepers (ties). they have no play in them at all and if the room is not the same temperature as the room it was built in then it was totally unusable.

these are not just rumors. i have seen these with my own eyes.

Peter

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I have laid flex with hard-butted joints in the 68-degree comfort of a warm workshop in winter, only to return to find that 115 degrees in the train room (aka garage) has caused it to expand and assume a shape similar to sidewinder tracks. Humidity in both cases was almost exaxtly the same.

Rail DOES expand with temperature changes. If the roadbed doesn’t, there WILL be problems. Not all of us have the luxury of fully climate controlled layout spaces.

Mythbuster busted.

Chuck

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Argue if you would like but the physics of this lines up with Bob’s statement. If you maintain close to the same temp so that the metal rail doesn’t expand and/or contract; and keep the humidity relatively constant so the wood in the layout is stable then you have a stable enviroment that will not shift. The reason most leave gaps is that they do not have the ability to control their layout room that closely.
Randy

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This is where I think everyone is missing the gist of the Myth Busters.

I am saying that others have stated each of the myths that I set out to bust.

It only takes one to bust a myth just as they to on TV

Some you win some you lose.

And this myth about not soldering the track joints is a myth and I have seen it proven too many time all over western PA, up in Western NY and Ohio. So there are more than just my layout that are doing this!

Just because some think that I have a climate controlled room, which I don’t, doesn’t mean that you can not do what I have done. There several of my operators that have their own home layouts that are in the top floor of their houses and they are not running air conditioning. Their layouts are not having this track problems, WHY?

I really don’t know but I do know that they have their rail joints soldered and I helped them solder them.

Again your situation will vary but don’t say that the track joints can’t be soldered as I have seen too many and helped do too many. Now nothing was said about leaving an occasional expansion slot around the layout. It is just you do not have to leave every track joint loose.

Myth Busted.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

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C’mon, Bob, you seem unwilling to compromise one iota. Even Jamie and Adam go back and restest old myths they’ve “Busted” and, on occasion, admitted when they made a mistake (see “Chicken Gun Revisted”).

On the show, they have three possible results: Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed. At worst, your “myth” is Plausible, because it’s certainly plausible that if you DO solder all your track joints, you will get kinked track. I’ve seen it happen myself.

If you are keeping your humidity below 70% in the summer (not easy in the northeast…it routinely goes as high as 95%) and above 50% in the winter (also not easy as it can easily drop to 30% or less), then guess what? Your layout is in a “climate contolled” room! You are keeping your layout in only a 20% humidity change, for pete’s sake. If that’s not “climate controlled”, I don’t know what is.

Well, if they seal their benchwork, their subroadbed, and their roadbed with paint, then they won’t have much problems with humidity, now will they?

If you solder all your joints WITHOUT sealing the rest of your benchwork, subroadbed and roadbed, and if you have wide changes in temperature and/or humidity, then you will get kinks in your track. Full stop, end of sentence.

Since most track is impervious to moisture, and the roadbed sure a

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Well Paul I am glad you are living right next to my place and know everything about my layout.

Everyone please listen as the truth has been told!

It is really funny how someone that does not even know any thing about the conditions of my layout and or the others that I speak of can be so positive that what I say is wrong. And our humidity is upwards of 90% also.

I am glad the there is a watch dog on this forum that can always know the truth!

So no one should paint their layout? The painting of the layout was the ONLY way we found to stop these problems.

Apparently many don’t paint and then have problems and a quick fix is to not solder the joints.

I have been building layouts at out club since 1984 and they were building these layouts the way I have been talking about way before I was a member. So then all of those members of our club are wrong too!

Sure glad to now know this! Just because your club can’t make it work doesn’t say our group can’t!

We had out club layouts set up in a mall store front for 8 years then in a 3rd floor of a 150 year old building and now we have been in a damp basement that the water sometimes comes through the sandstone foundation walls. So I would think that we have been in every type of humidity condition there is from 100 plus heat in the summer in the 3 floor building as well as the damp basement we are in now and the problem does not exist.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

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Bob,
You said your layout and the others you’ve mentioned are in PA, western NY, and OH. Are you seriously going to tell me that the weather is all that different from Massachusetts? High humidity and temps in the summer, low humidity and temps in the winter? I’ve been a New Englander all my life (31 years)…I think I know what the weather is like in the Northeast (and like it or not, PA and NY are definitely in the Northeast). Sure, you get more snow, but as my mom’s from Erie and her aunt used to live in Buffalo, so I think I know about that, too (as the joke goes: “If you have designed a Holloween costume to fit over a snowsuit, you may be from Erie.”).

Well, you said that you keep your humidity between 50% and 70%. Was that not true? I only used the information you gave me…how can I be faulted for that?

At least I don’t proclaim “myths” and claim to bust them…when there are many instances of these “myths” being true.

Who said no one should paint their layout? Please quote the exact phrase that says that. I’ll be patient…

And about the paint stopping the problem… no duh. That’s what I said, too.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner…give the man a cigar! Not only is it quicker NOT to paint your layout, it’s quicker to NOT solder all your rail joints. Sure, it’s better to paint you

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Bob,

My layout was started in 1987. Standard L Girder benchwork with 1/2" plywood subroad, and Homabed roadbed with Atlas code 100 spiked to it. The layout is in a 20’ by 25’ area and I have never has any expansion issues. That said, I only solder rail joints that are on curves or to make a short section into a long section by soldering it to a 36" section. All track has a feeder dropped to the power bus. The layout is in the basement, and is air conditioned/heated with some variation of humidity through the year.
Our club is located in a 27’ by 27’ ‘office center’. We laid the staging tracks on Homasote sheets that were painted to ‘seal’ them. They were laid in the summer, and right after Christmas we had to repair about a dozen ‘kinks’. My feeling is that the folks laying to track did not use my rule of ‘An Xacto #11 blade between the joint’ before spiking the rail down. Also several areas have the track soldered. All in all, it went good and we have had no further problems.
I think room temp and humidity are key here. When you think of it; The plywood expands/contracts at one rate, the Homasote at another, and the track is ‘hanging on’ for dear life!

Jim

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Here are some numbers I looked up:

Coefficient of thermal expansion of Nickel Silver: 16.410^-6 per Deg C
Coefficient of thermal expansion of pine: 510^-6 per Deg C

You can believe whatever Myths or experience you want, but those are the numbers. They are linear within a realistic range of temperature changes.

So if you built your layout as a straight module at a specific temperature using nickel silver rail and pine benchwork, then the temperature changes from there, your track and wood will shrink or grow according to the above numbers.

The number is “unitless”, meaning it’s in inches per inch, or feet per feet (the units cancel out).

For example, if your layout temperature increases by 1 deg C, your track will get 16.410^-6 feet longer per foot of straight track (or .0002" per foot per degC of temp change), whereas the pine will only grow 510^-6 feet longer per foot. Another way to say this is the track is growing 3 times as fast as the pine, purely due to temperature changes.

Maybe the Myth Buster guy keeps his layout relatively temperature controlled. If you’re building a garden layout, good luck!

I’m personally not a huge fan of, “Look, I did such & such, so that’s proof!”.

Anyone who’s done any sort of scientific experiments knows you need to document your test so that you know what you’re taking into account, what you’re controlling, eliminating, etc.

But hey, as someone said before, this type of sensationalism is fun, so continue to have at it…

(note, I didn’t even mention moisture effects on wood).

You’ll have to do the math yourself and look at your own layout length, temp changes, etc., and see if these numbers are significant. For some layouts, they might be, for some, they might not.

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Well then Paul we are on the same page.

Some place it seemed that we were arguing appearently about the same thing.

My layout is only one of many in our area that has done the soldering of the track BUT they are located on second floors, in attics, out buildings and basements YET we all have the the track soldered so the humidity will affect the wood differently YET we don’t get the track kinks as others here report.

What we need to find out WHY we don’t have the problem and others do.

And it can not all be because I am TRYING to keep my humidity below 70 % (which is not working on the real humid days). I have a gauge in the basement and I can track the humidity changes daily and I am only using one dehumidifier so it will not keep up with the humidity in a 2200 sq ft basement.

This is why I stated I Busted the Myth - but with so many different locations that my local operators have their layouts in, why are they not having problems as so many others claim they do.

BOB H - Clarion, PA

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There are clearly too many variables unaccounted for in the discussion. I believe Bob when he says he finds these cautions to be myths…it is his experience. I also give full credit to the other gentlemen who say the cautions have a great deal of merit…because it is their experience.

Somewhere in the debate, the variances in design, material, and in construction, not to leave environments aside, have led to highly disparate results.

That is what makes this hobby so wonderful, if you can stand my opining for a second; none of us gets a free ride, or at least, not for long. Each of us has to learn what the cost is to get what we want out of the hobby.

Sorry, edited for typos.

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In a controlled environment, I would agree that soldering will not cause kinks. Ineed soldering is never the cause of kinks, it’s the expansion and contraction of the underlying structure, combined with no gaps to handle said expansion and contraction.
Even if you do solder all track joints - I would NEVER solder turnouts in place - what a pain if you ever have to remove one to repair or replace it. Plus sometimes you MUST have gaps - reverse loops, wyes, power controlled sidings, between power districts.

–Randy

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Bob H

Come on out to the dessicated desert, into a space that CANNOT be temperature and humidity controlled (open vents to outside required by code!) and lay an oval of track with soldered joints on a plain wood table with a steel frame and legs. Operate over it for a year, and a 100 degree temperature variation. THEN we’ll talk!

In the meantime, I will continue to lay, and operate over, track laid with gapped, unsoldered rail joiners bridged by jumpers, electrically bulletproof and derailment free.

Chuck

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My experience on my own layout with soldered rail joints has so far (about 15 years) been problem-free, with regard to kinks. Benchwork is open grid 1"x4" pine, with sub-roadbed of 3/4" or 5/8" plywood, either in sheets or strips, with all mainline curves being cut-outs from the same plywood. Roadbed is either cork or the track is laid directly on the plywood. Electrical gaps (control is DC) are all filled with ABS or styrene spacers. Most of the track (flex) has been ballasted. None of the benchwork has been painted or sealed. The layout is in an unheated, but well insulated room in my basement. A dehumidifier is sometimes run in another room in the basement, but the layout room door is usually closed.
I have no idea why some have problems with soldered rail joints and others don’t: just the same as some have to clean track constantly and others never need to bother. I count myself fortunate in both instances.
Personally, I don’t think that moisture is the culprit, as my layout room is not that dry: [;)]

Wayne

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Some of you fellas really tickle me…
I have a TRUE point to Point layout in my basement WITH EVERY JOINT SOLDERED with PAINTED HOMASOTE. on 1" pine boards in places and 3/4 plywood in the yards and I haven’t had a single kink in it since I built it…!!!
I DO NOT have a dehumidifer and never did on the layout.
I have over 1500 feet of track and I DON’T HAVE any problems.
Atlas code 100 flextrack. WITH THE JOINTS STAGGARED (OFFSET OR WHATEVER HAVE YOU)
A butt joint is the worst thing you can do for flex track…
Now any of you want to argue you are just gonna pound salt and you are the ones that are gonna suffer I don’t run on your layout.
I run on mine…WITH NO KINKS!!! If you want to keep going the way you are you are most welcome…
Oh by the way The Painting trick on the road bed I Taught Bob that…

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Wow, now we’ve called in reinforments…

Hey Rich, you’ve been here a long time. Some friendly advice: Don’t you know that swearing is verboten? Even using underscores? If you’re smart, you’ll edit those out toot suite before Bergie locks you out.

As for my layout… I’ve got a 25’ x 50’ HO pike, with a 200’ double track run. I don’t paint my roadbed, my L-girder benchwork, or my subroadbed, I don’t use homosote, I use 1/2" plywood and 1/4" pine roadbed, and I DON’T solder my rails together. I don’t have kinks, either. How about that? I solder jumper wires and feeders, and gosh, it still works without problems. I wonder why?

Paul A. Cutler III

Weather Or No Go New Haven

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MYTH BUSTING - OR USING GOOD PRACTICE?

1.Wood expands with moisture.
2.Metal (Rail) expands with teperature.
3.RUNNING heats track
-(turn off the lights at night when running sometime)

Soldering joints improves electrical continuity between track pieces, so is a substitute for installing jumpers. What OTHER benefit is there?

It also makes the the track RIGID and uncompromising - good on curves…

If someone brags ’ that ‘they don’t have to’ - Bob, you are right - and they are right! … and Bob, you ARE ‘bragging’ … and thumbing your nose at the laws of physics… So it hasn’t happended to you.

I have crossed the street in traffic where there wasn’t a crosswalk, and haven’t been hit yet … (But it still isn’t good practice).

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Oriented Strand Board does grow primarily in one direction, like plywood, hence the “oriented” nomenclature. However, the way it is impregnated with the binder resin, especially exterior grades, definitely inhibits moisture absorption/release.
I have soldered most of my track on a couple of layouts with no ill effects. As to soldering ‘all’ I will take your word for it. The exact amount of thermal expansion and contraction of materials is greatly overestimated by most people anyway. It is not listed in percentages, and works out to thousanths of an inch per hundred linear feet in the temperature ranges we would typically see.