In reading things about the Great Northern, some things always seem to be presented as fact : James J. Hill is always portrayed as sort of a benevolent robber baron. The GN is always potrayed as the strong,independant ,profitable railroad that didn’t need land grants to get to the Pacific. The BN merger was sort of a technicality, for tax purposes, as GN,NP,CBQ & SPS were under common ownership and management for some 70 years. Is this more the less way it was? or are we missing some details? Any good Great Northern historians out there?
It’s simple: John Stevens stumbles across Marias Pass, and suddenly James Hill is a genius. Without Marias Pass, the GN would have been BY FAR the worst of the Northern transcons in terms of profile and alignment, worse than the Northern Pacific, worse than the Milwaukee, worse than the Union Pacific. Hill got lucky that one time, and that plus his feeding off the NP land grants over the years was enough to carry the GN over what was undoubtedly THE WORST crossing of the Cascades via Stevens Pass.
(Well, would you look at that! The whole history of the GN summed up in one consise paragraph. Betcha ya’ll can’t do that!)
(Well would you look at that! One whole paragraph, and I’m already confused![:)]). Without making me go up to the third floor of my house to look this up, which pass did the GN use to get over the mountains? Marias or Stevens pass. I thought NP went through a bankruptcy early on, allowing Hill "interests’’ to aquire control of the NP. How did Hill feed off the NP land grants? How did GN do it without land grants?
GN crossed the Rockies via Marias Pass and the Cascades via Stevens Pass. They also had Haskill’s Pass over the Salish Range just west of Glacier. In the book Lines West, it is claimed that the GN was looking to cross the Divide at Cut Bank Pass at about 7500’ before Marias Pass was discovered at 5200’.
Why the GN chose to go over Stevens Pass rather than the already discovered Snoqualmie Pass (later used by the superior Milwaukee as the absolute best railroad crossing of the Cascades), or going down via the north bank of the Columbia River (later used by Hill’s SP&S line) is not something I can answer. Yes, Hill did get the NP and it’s land assets at a fire sale, and used the NP to help pay for the SP&S. Again, why would the NP help finance the building of the SP&S between Spokane and Pasco when the NP already had a line betwixt those towns, other than Hill made 'em? Should’ve been the PP&S instead, not the SP&S. (Isn’t it ironic that after the BN merger it was the SP&S line between Spokane and Pasco that was torn out in favor of the inferior NP line?)
The GN’s predecessor, the St Paul and Pacific, did have land grants which helped finance Hill’s ambitions.
But you gotta admit, the Billy Goat symbol was pretty cool!
Both. There are two notable mountain ranges, the Rockies (Marias) and the Cascades (Stevens), that a Northern Transcon must traverse. Later, the Stevens crossing was succeeded by the first Cascade tunnel (1900) and then the second Cascade tunnel (1929).
NP and several other RRs in the Northwest went belly-up in the Great Panic of '73. Henry Villard bought the NP in 1881. Hill and Co. bought the “several other companies” and then proceeded to build their empire. In 1901, through JP Morgan & Co., the NP and GN jointly bought the CB&Q tried to merge into the Northern Securities Co. It was the government through the ICC and its anti-trust considerations that prevented the GN, NP, and CB&Q from combining formally. I wouldn’t consider Hill a “robber barron,” especially when you compare his behavior as measured against most of his contemporaries. He took great interest in running and improving the GN. The “Empire Builder” is justly named after him.
Believe it or not, the GN was largely self-financed.
Murphy,
Get Don Hoffmer’s history of the Great Northern and Albro Martin’s biography of James J Hill.
What sets Hill apart from the others, in my opinion, is that he built his railroads to operate them. In practice this mean that in the early days he was out on the line “where the money was spent” controlling costs. He insisted on the most direct line with lowest grades attainable for the day. The result was by far the best overall profile which maximized the sixe of train that could be handled for a given amount of power in every era. This made him generallly the low cost producer, and therefore usually the stronger competitor.
Stories differ about Marias Pass. The most likely facts are that while the pass was not known when Hill started west, there was evidence of its existence. This notion is supported by the fact that Stevens basically took a single walk and found it.
Stevens Pass as originially built was certainly the highest and toughest of the Cascade Crossings. The original line was planned to be temporary and was replace within 10 years by the original Cascade Tunnel. At that point the line was marginally worse in terms of lenght of steep grade than the NP at Stampede Pass. The problem with Stevens proved to be snow, the Wellington Avalanch of March 1910 which killed about 100 people being the most extreem event. The new tunnel, completed in 1928 or 1929 gave a reasonalbe line, albeit with 2.2% asceding grades on both sides on the tunnel.
The claim that the Milwaukee had the best all the Cascade crossings is debateable. If you consider only Cle Elum to Renton I would agree as the approach to their tunnel Westbound is almost flat. The Eastboud climb was about 1.8% however, not much better than the GN and NP 2.2%
Weak spot was the climb from the Columbia River at Beverly to the top of the Saddle Mountains, about 20 miles of 2.2% with a short 1.6% descent on the other side. This createed two separate helper district
Hey Murphy, I didn’t know South Dakota had any 3 story buildings.
Great Northern also had a strong (and profitable) presence in the Minnesota iron ore belt.
The Great Northern was built by a Canadian (Hill) while Canadian Pacific was built by an American (Van Horne).
Wellington believed that route and ruling grade were of far greater importance than curvature and accumulative grades. The Milwaukee, NP, and GN lines all had a ruling grade of 2.2%, so in that aspect they all come in even. The Milwaukee was slightly shorter than GN and much shorter than NP, so in that aspect we’ll still call it even between Milwaukee and GN. Of course, it could be that Wellington was speaking of localized segments rather than a whole regional profile.
Just for fun, Wellington also believed that switchbacks were preferable to reverse curves for achieving elevation. Can you imagine modern trains seesawing their way up and down mountain divisions? But, what can you expect from a book published in the 1880’s?
Murphy,
I made an error about Villard and NP. NP was not broke when he secured control, it was by the time he finished the transcontinental line.
The point where the ex NP meets the ex OR&N near Wallula WA is still known as Villard Jct for routing purposes. NP originally had trackage rights on OR&N to Portland, then a line down the left bank of the Columbia to Goble with car ferry to Kalama WA, then North to Tacoma. After Villard lost control of the NP they built over Stampede Pass from Pasco to Tacoma.
Mac
I didn’t mean to call JJ Hill a robber baron, as such. Several books sort of describe him that way, and I wondered why. The authors seemed to be saying that even though Hill was one of the good guys, he WAS in charge.
Unlike land grant railroads which often had completion deadlines, Hill built the GN a section at a time, developing traffic as he went. For example, he convinced his friend Weyerhauser to set up operations in the Pacific Northwest. The result was very profitable for both.
One comment on the ruleing grades these systems have (had).
Although .4% doesn’t seem as steep, the difference in tonnage trailing a locomotive is about 1,000 tons between 1.8% and 2.2%. A “single” up 1.8% is about 5,000 - 5,400 trailing tons (depending on curvature etc.); up 2.2% it is about 4,200 tons. It doesn’t take too many trains to pay for the flatter grade.
True! I recently saw a GN 174348, a woodchip car built 10/69, on a Progressive Rail train in Northfield MN.
Was his name Billy? I was thinking it was Rocky?
Rocky it is
www.gnrhs.org/logos.htm
Their range includes South Dakota
www.cmzoo.org/rockymountaingoat.html
GN probably had some yard goats in Sioux Falls.
Where is VerMontanan ?
They are very common in the Black Hills of SOUTH Dakota. I’ve seen them near Mt. Rushmore, and on the old ROW of the Crouch Line in the hills.
Eric,
Your statement about the impact of .4% difference in grade is true. It is even more true in the “flatlands”.
Most sources give rolling friction to be equavalent in resistance to .2% grade. A line with .2% grade can support twice the train of a line with a .6% grade (.4% vs .8% equavalent grades). While not called a granger line, the GN hauled a lot of wheat out of Eastern Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota. This is likely where Hill’s obsession with the lowest possiblle grades paid off the best. Hundred car wheat trains behind a 2-8-2 were an everyday occurrance. Such trains would have been 7,000 - 7,500 tons.
Another example. In steam days the NP ran a fair number of trains over the SP&S between Spokane and Pasco Washington rather than over its own line. Why? Because the tonnage ratings on the SP&S, at .4% either way were double the tonnage ratings on the NP, at 1% each way.
Grades count. They impact operating costs on a ton mile basis by their effect on train size holding power constant, or requiring more and more power to move a given train. As your example points out, even if power is unlimited, the strength of drawbars is not, and drawbar strength will control train size even if power does not.
Mac
Another reason that NP made so much use of the SP&S line
is that the clearances in Stampede Tunnel and tunnel #4 on
the Stampede Pass line restricted the railroad to using smaller,
less effective motive power in steam days. NP was unable to
run anything larger than a Z-3 2-8-8-2 or a class A or A-1 4-8-4
through these tunnels. Thus, NP’s fleet of modern passenger
and freight power (A-3 through 5 and Challengers class Z-6
through 8) were kept out of the area. They were only able to
work as far west as Easton, Wa.-on the east approach to
Stampede Pass. Couple that with the grade issues and you
have clear economic and operational reasons for the use of the
water level grades (nearly) of the SP&S.
Mac
The fruit of J J Hill’s attention to grades is the fact that the Hi-Line (former GN) is BN’s remaining East-West route to the Pacific Northwest. The NP main, even though still owned by BN, is now Montana Rail Link. The only part of the GN main that I am aware of that is not a BN artery is between Sandpoint and Spokane - and even that is still in operation by the BN and the POVA - and the only part of the NP main used is the part between Sandpoint and Spokane. HMMMMMM.
The SPS line between Pasco and Spokane was abandoned because the BN did not want to pay for the replacement of those huge trestles along the Snake where they climed out of the Snake to the Palouse. Until they decided to abandon, it was the Eastbound main between Pasco and Spokane and the NP main was the Westbound main.
And speaking of grades, it has always amazed me that the BN did not purchase the MILW between Ellensburg and Tacoma, and use it as their main stem, abandon Stampede, and relegate the GN line between Spokane and Everett to secondary status. In fact, there are several places where the BN could have used the MILW and downgraded the NP line between Terry and Tacoma.
Even though the BN did not do that, I understand why. They had a parallel line that was in reasonable shape (NP) and they would have had to completely rebuild the MILW track. $$$$$$$$$
Mudchicken could probably hold forth on this subject for days…so where is the mud covered rusty feathered one?
Kenno,
I am a Washington Boy, grew up in Wenatchee and have rode over both Stevens and Stampede several times.
If the BN were to use Snoqualmie it would ave been from Easton to Black River. The reason I suspect they did not is that by the time of the merger, and likely in anticipation of it, the GN between Spokane and Seattle was all CTC with plenty of sidings for the traffic. The NP was only doing two or three trains a day each way which were easily rerouted to the GN and SP&S. Between Spokane and Seattle the NP was about 60 miles longer than the GN and about two hours longer for passenger trains. I know this because my uncle was a conductor on the NCL and Mainstreeter when I was in my teens. There was no reason to drag the freight an extra 60 miles, which is about 20% extra. The only reason Stampede lasted as long as it did was Amtrack.
I am told that BN bought the Snoqaulmie line. I do not know if that is true or not. If they did not have any traffic for Stampede they had none for Snoqualmie. Street running through Renton was then a pain and would doubless be much worse today.
Mac