You may have noticed that Bergie locked the History Quiz thread we had been using. It logged a lot of hits in a year plus.
Let’s start a new one if you’re interested. I believe the quesiton was: which state had the most streetcar and interurban route-miles in service immediately after World War II, and which does now?
Apparently no one has hit on the answer yet (is that right, daveklepper?).
Please correct me if I have garbled the question.
Here is Dave’s question, culled from the original thread:
[i]OK, here is a quiz question: What USA state had the most streetcar and interurban trolley systems during WWII and immediately afterward, and which state has the most today? I am not referring to mileage, just to number of independent systems. If you can name all the systems in each of the two catagories, then you are the winner even if others guess the state or states. And if you can name those systems that handled interchange railroad frieght and those that handled only on-line freight, even better.
Pure freight operations do not count. But the Sacremanto Northern did operate local trolley service in both Chico and Sacramento during WWII, even though it had exited the interurban passenger market and operated intercity interchange frieght. Be careful.[/i]
A link to the original thread: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/110140.aspx
And, finally, the rules, as originally set forth:
Here are the rules. I will start I will ask a question about Railroad history (Merger dates, signifigant dates) the person that answers it correctly asks the next question. No looking online for answer you must know the answer. Play fair. Have some fun and learn.
Let’s have at it!
I summit the state of Indiana for having most street / interurban lines right after WWII…Sadly, though I wonder…Our massive system here shut down at the beginning of 1941…Too bad it couldn’t have made it to WWII as it would have been very useful.
Note: I was not in the area then but have gleaned my info over the years of reading, conversations, etc…
. . . has anyone gotten half of the answer right?
For the “today” half, I’ll stick with my “five systems” for California. SF Muni, San Jose, LA, SD Trolley and Oceanside Sprinter light rail line. Can’t think of any other state with more than two.
Of course, this excludes museums and heavy rail rapid transit.
You are correct with California for today, and add the Long Beach “serve the tourist boats and harbor” historic Red-car line run by two beautiful replica PE cars and one restored PE car as a regular transit service. Yes, California is tops today.
Indiana may be been tops in the twenties before consolidation of some five interurbans into the Indiana Railroad, and then subsequent abandonments of many town systems, but during WWII there were three or four states with more systems. Indania had the short interurban running into Indiana from Louisville, the small town system across from Louisville, Marion’s local streetcars (an Indiana RR relic), the Indianapolis streetcar system, with its beautiful single-end modern Brill Peter Witt like cars, Fort Wayne with double-end Master Units, the Chicago South Shore and South Bend, and I think a local system sill running in Gary. Anyone can add to the list? Again, three states had more.
Muncie had a far reaching system{s}, back in an earlier time frame. A big center city station for Interurbans and local street cars. That building was demolished about 1958. One can find photos of it on the internet.
The city had about 4 or 5 lines {interurban}, reaching out like the spokes of a wheel at one time, to Indy, Bluffton, New Castle, Winchester…actually 2 lines heading towards Indy…and possibly, a few others I can’t name…Basically, this ended about January, 1941…Streetcar system here was shut down about 1931…And…a bit of trivia…Various places, I can still determine where rails were positioned in the streets…{I’m sure some still there covered with paving material}. One intersection in a western residential area of our city still has rails visible at the surface…Concrete street.
Daveklepper, how are these folks doing? - a.s.
Correct about Indiana. Not the answer. The Marion system that survived WWII was all-Birney-car, no double truck cars ran during or after WWII. Some were left by the Indiana Railroad, some were second hand from Michigan and Massachusetts and possibliy other palces.
The Indiana interurban that survived was a short one from Lousiville to New Albany, the Dixie line or the Daisy line, its nickname. During WWII and until in shut down afterward, it used regular Louisville Peter Witt type motor and trailer streetcars, with the motor cars equipped with roof headlight. The “Big Four” steamroad bridge was dual gauge, and this interurban line had the Louisville special trolley wide gauge, similar to Baltimore, Philly, and Pittsburgh. But the Indiana Railroad used the same bridge and was of course standard gauge. IN New Albany was the small local streetcar system mentioned, and after separating from the Indiana Railroad, it was named “Home Transit.” It was also all Birney during WWII, or nearly all Birney, they may have been two double-truck old wood deck roofers used as standby.
A hint about the state. One of the systems running during WWII and for a few years afterward was something like the current heritage operation in Lowell, MA, except it was real, with a long history, and not a replica or heritage. It was not the only system in the city or town it served.
If you are concerned about how we folks are doing where I am, contact me at daveklepper@yahoo.com, and I’ll give you the details.
I will add a bit of trivia of one more area…{Not saying the state would be first}, but the city of Johnstown, Pa., with The Johnstown Traction Co., had a wide ranging system that dated back several decades. Survived a flood too…1936.
It survived until about June, 10th…1960 as a streetcar transportation system. It was a wide ranging system {in mileage}. It had extended on out to another town in the county…Windber, but that milage had been cut back by then. JTC served extended {Boro’s}, around the city of Johnstown in a wide area. I don’t have the mileage in front of me but it was extensive. I do have several booklets on the system and one can find dozens and dozens of photos of it on the internet.
To provide service to many Boro’s…they had to deal with the lay of the land…Up and down grades. But the routes seemed to be layed out rather well…and of course most was street running. They even aquired the single control end cars {Brill…I believe}, after WWII and they were so much quieter running with the composite construction of the wheels…{not transferring the sound to the car body nearly as much as the older vehicles.
I rode Johnstown on two occasions, and two of the double-end St. Louis-built lightweights, 357 and 356 are at Branford, where I ran 357 many, many times. Also rode it on a fan trip in Jonstown. The mdoern postwar cars were St. Louis -built PCC’s with standee windows, and I believe Johnstown had 25 of them. Johnstown was the smalles system in North America to run PCC’s, but size of the fleet was not the smallest. Illinois Terminal had only ten PCC’s, for example.
A hint on the state. One town or city had four different companies or authorities with trolley-pole equipped cars serving it.
Another hint: It is one of states that currently does have light rail.
I’ll be brave and guess Illinois.
In Chicago, you had the Chicago Surface Lines, and whatever the L system was called before CTA was organized.
To Chicago, you had the three Insull carriers: CNS&M, CA&E, CSS&SB. And the IC.
Around Chicago, you had the Aurora, Elgin, & Fox River.
Beyond Chicago, there was the Illinois Terminal, and perhaps one or two others.
Today’s light-rail system: St. Louis Metrolink.
I have two guesses. I’ll say either Pennsylvania or NJ, because I know they both still have light rail.
A bit more trivia: The Johnstown Traction Co. that served that city had to negotiate terrain with elevation changes…From the downtown elevation of the city to up in Westmont, a Boro extended out from downtown, I’d say the elevation change was at least 500-600’…That’s quite a bit for rail type vehicles in a pretty short distance.
I too, {as Dave indicated he did}, rode the JTC system.
Oltdmman is winner since he got CA correct for now and the answer NJ and PA kind of spoiled the second part. PA is the WWII answer, with Pittsburgh Railways, West Penn, Johnstown, Altoona, Hershey, Scranton, Laural Line-Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Willks-Barre, Lancaster, Lehigh Valley Transit (with trolley-pole interurban cars on the third rail Philadelphia and Western to 69th Street Philly), the Philadelphia and Western, Red Arrow-Philadelphia Suburban, Philadelphia Transportation System (largest system) and Fairmont Park Traction (in the Park only, open cars, the smallest system, also in Philly.)
Parts of Red Arrow, P&W, and PTC survive as part of SEPTA
Parts of PtsRy survive as part of PAT
Dave…I know of a system over in western Pennsylvania back a few decades that must have served the Latrobe area…The tracks crossed the Lincoln Highway headed south towards Pipetown…Must have been an interurban route…I don’t know what system that may have been a part of…Do you have anything on that…? I could still see the R of W back in the '50’s.
Up until 1958, Troy NY had a Union Station, owned by Troy Union RR. Who were the three RR owners of Troy Union RR. What fourth RR had trackage rights into the station?
I would say that the B&M, NYC, and D&H owned the Troy Union, and that the Rutland had trackage rights (over the B&M) into the station .
Johnny
Fast and 100% accurate! You’re up.
Even though this question starts with a train, it is about how it was routed. The June, 1916, issue of the Guide, shows the Georgia Southern and Florida operating trains 3 & 4 between Macon and Tifton. This train was a through train between Chicago and Jacksonville. Even though the GS&F went into Jacksonville, another road carried the train into Jacksonville.What road was it, and what roads handled the train north of Macon?
By July 4, 1920, the GS&F was in the Southern Railway System, and the train is still shown, with different numbers (the numbers used by the other roads that handled it)–and there is no description of the train. Apparently the Southern was embarrassed by their handling it.
Extra credit: By June 15, 1931, it was handled over a different route between Macon and Tifton (44 miles longer); what was the route? Extra! Extra! credit: what further change in its route was made early in the fifties (31 miles shorter)?
Johnny