I take exception to Lou Palumbo’s editorial “The day the music died” ( Feb.'09, pg.37 ). His use of this title missed the mark by a wide margin. He should have titled it “The Hobby of Greed”! After all, there is faction of three rail community that seem to worry themselves to death about how much their precious toy trains are worth.
Mr. Palumbo seems to ignor the fact that there are other people in this world that would like to enjoy the hobby of model railroading for the model railroading and not worry about their trains being worth only what the next fool is willing to pay for them! His only communication in this editorial was one of greed!
Even though I am not interested in a Lionel 18007 GS4 or whatever it is, I am glad that Lionel decided to release this model for those who may have wanted a GS4 and could not afford the inflated prices demanded by the greedy train collectors.
By the way, where does it say that Lionel only makes models for the speculating collectors? I thought they were a model train company!
So Lou, the title “The day the music died” is better left to Don McLean and his ode to Buddy Holly. Maybe instead you should have been listening to the O’Jay’s “For The Love of Money” and let everyone enjoy the hobby of model railroading.
Well said jim! I must admit that Im guilty of this. I too have one of those $10,000 engines. Its a 2025 that my great grandfather got for my grandfather. Its funny though…greenbergs only lists it at $70
You know, Ive spent thousands on lionel trains over the years. Ive also paid for insurance, car repairs, student loans, food, gas etc. Yet I dont look at trains and that other crap the same. Ill never sell them but they truely are “a lifetime investment in happiness” and with all these bailouts “happiness” is going to be the only investment that beats inflation.
I don’t have the copy of ctt that is in but I have the jist of what your saying. I normally buy trains for the reason of running them. I do buy and sell ( never made a killing at it never really worried other than hopefully to get close what I paid or hope a couple dollars over) as I’m selling for a reason and its not to make a profit it another crisis has come into my life and I need money to take care of it.
I enjoy trains to much and to me its like the titled of this web site Classic Toy trains not Classic high dollar trains.
Thanks for bring this up. I may have to go out and get this issue and in near future I’ll renew my subscription but having to much fun buying all these high price trains so can’t afford it right now. [:-^]
I dropped my subscription to CTT years ago because I felt they placed too much emphasis on the “investment value” of toy trains.
Yet, I think there are many people, including some who claim to distain “investors” who justify their spending on trains by telling themselves that they can always recoup their money spent by selling off the trains. Heck, they might even make a profit.
I haven’t got my issue yet but I was glad to see the bottom fall out of Fundimensions. They made a lot of neat stuff I wanted but it just wasn’t worth the inflated collector prices it was getting in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Today it’s all over ebay for a song and I’ve snapped up some really neat engines and cars for the price of HO.
Competition is good in this respect. When brand XXX attempts to produce an instant collectible and it sells out, brand YYY does the same thing and satisfies the demand.
There are people who wish the re-producers fall off the face of the earth so their collectibles increase in value. Well, that’s just tough. This stuff was made to be gazed at or played with, nothing more. Real collectors accumalate this stuff purely for the joy of displaying it all and running it anyway.
On the other hand, it’s NOT much fun when you try to recoup your investment (call it what you will) in some train item and find you can’t even get 50% of what you paid for it.
Believe me, that’s what has happened to me over and over again. Only very rarely am I able to recoup my original purchase price on modern era Lionel trains.If i can get 50%, I’m doing well. 60% is a dream come true!
Trains are lousy “investments” for the most part – even worse than the stock market!
They have not been “good investments” (in terms of $$ profit) since the early 1990s. Essentially, once K-Line and MTH entered the marketplace in a big way, production grew so big it way outpaced demand for the vast majority of train offerings. Once a fixed amount of money is spread over a much wider array of goods, prices tend to fall, buyers become much pickier about what they buy and in what condition, etc., and making a profit becomes much more difficult for sellers.
Unless you equate making a small profit – or even recouping your original cost – with greed, then that term doesn’t really apply to the situation, IMO…
cw, i dropped my subscription with the other mag as they always gave rave reviews on products that wind up having troubles and learning of them here on the forum. now as of late I’ve seen CTT reviews where the person flatly stated it wasn’t there cup of tea and why they thought so. any mag that can be honest to put it in print has my money and glad to see some have brass kahonies. as to greed it’s been there since who knows when I seen it when I got into the hobby in 1980 I’ll never understand collectors or ? that spend thousands of dollars on one engine when you could have 10 for that cost for what! we all know most of what we cherish in life doesn’t mean squat once were dead and gone. me I buy them run them and have no intension of selling them would like to think they’ll have a good home when I’m gone, to someone else to get the pleasure and relaxation they can render after a day in reality. only my 2 cents worth and at todays rates thats a negative 75 cents eh?
Well, there are collectors, and there are accumulators. I guess I am a bit of both. Many collectors enjoy hunting down items that are difficult to obtain. Sometimes that means looking for a rare item. Other times it means looking for a more common item in pristine condition. That’s also the reason why many collectors will leave items mint in the box. Once the item is run, it’s uniqueness is diminished. There is an old saying: Quality not quantity.
I agree with your comment that none of our toys, whether they are “collectors items” or “operators items” will mean much once we are gone. IMHO, when one looks at the big picture, toy trains aren’t even there.
I think that if people consider toy trains to be the ticket to wealth, they are fooling themselves. I tried selling trains last year, and I gave up. I found that fellow collectors were trying to get me to hand my items over for a small fraction of the current value. One guy tried to tell me that a boxed like new ZW was worth $25 at best. If I did sell an item online, I lost money. I am in this hobby purely for the enjoyment of restoring and running trains, as well as the social aspects.
The only time I have any luck is when I buy a lot on ebay with lots of stuff in it. Usually I can get those low enough that I can sell most and keep one or two things and it will be worth while. On the other hand I usually end up keeping most of the junk, I mean stuff…
I thought the article brought to mind that many of the trains we thought were valuble and going to be collectible some day have faded in resale to a fraction of what they might have once been worth. The moderately rare items of yesterday(limited production, or highly sought after) don’t measure up to being a good investment most times today. The onslought of multiple reissues and nearly identical copies has satisfied the pent up demand that a rare item might once have held. Many of these copies also have improvements like better graphics, plus sound and control systems and are “new” with the box. When you add in the much lower price for a copy vs the inflated value of an original, it’s no wonder originals are dropping in value all the time. That, and the fact that the O gauge marketplace is flooded with product of most every type and roadname means there are a lot of items buyers have to choose from. No need to spend big $$ on lets say a postwar original in like new condition, when you could have so many other items that you like equally well. Sure, there are still exceptions but these are very few. Truely new postwar and earlier production items may hold value, but then you can’t play with it or you’ll loose that value. The point is, the marketplace has shifted from a collectors market to an operators market. As for me, I’m not going to hold out, filing away item after item, never using it, waiting for it to increase in value like some sort of retirement nest egg. Chances are, I’d get a much better return in more traditional financial investments. I bring em home, open them up and let them run like they were designed to do. I too used to be one of those that bought trains with the primary desire of selecting items that would increase in value, and enjoyed some success at it. It was fun, and while I sold very little, it made me feel good to know that I could make a profit if I wanted on certain items.&
Who cares what the writer scribbles anyway? If you enjoy the hobby YOU enjoy the hobby based on your own criteria----it is in all fields----I collect folk art----I buy pices I LOVE. I do not buy it based on some criteria someone else assumes is everyones criteria. As in all investments—as investments there are risks—hence find what you enjoy----don’t worry about editorial sermons----esp sermons from sources that emphesised the exact thing being railed about-----off my[soapbox] [banghead] causes headaches----
Toy trains seem to be the only segment of the hobby where people expect some sort of “return”. If you attend swap meets that are primarily HO and N, you will find used engines and rolling stock in excellent or near new condition for a fraction of what they sold for new. I’ve seen guys unload ten locomotives just to get a new challenger and they don’t bat an eye.
That’s partly due to the amount of yap regarding valuation placed on the trains----I seen that in folk art as well----we can see that all over-----oh well—look at what happened in real estate—the entire equity market done blowed up real good----if all you hear is but toy trains are an amazing investment, well-----[:-^]
Some ware along the line people quit collecting, trains, PEZ , botllecaps or what ever because they liked the items ,instead they were going to get rich.
Look at this article and then look at the most popular question is in the comments:
I can’t believe that most people haven’t figured out that by the time you hear about something being the "next big thing’ in collectibles (guitars, 50’s cars, Muscle cars, precious moments, or beanie babies), the bubble is burst. If you are buying a kids toy or mass produced item that was meant to be used from an antiques dealer, you are coming in too late to “get rich”.
As you might guess by my namesake , I collect Garfield the cat stuff. Sadly we now have price guides and “super collectors” and wheeler dealers hocking “RARE” and “HTF VINTAGE” Garfield items. I just buy it because I grew up with the strip and TV show and couldn’t afford all the toys when I was a kid. Same with trains.
I wonder how many of these pepole wonder what there baby photos are worth or what they could get for their vacation slides or left overs from a fancy dinner.
Do we not spend enough time chasing after the all mighty dollar at work that we must do it with our hobbies?
Sorry for the rant.
Oh I guess I should ad getting back to the main point of the original article, I actually have some Garfield stuff that is worth quite a bit. Items that still have all the tags or for one reason or another are desirable. How would I feel if Jim Davis and PAWS Inc made
I like Lou Palumbo. I have since I shopped his store back in the 1980’s while in college. He’s a good egg, but he also like to “put things out there” for you to chew on. We’re all doing that.
I like repros. I would hesitate to call the (three) traditionally sized GS-series Daylights the same. One was a GS-2, another a GS-4, and the third from the Heritage Series had so many added details to not be a repro.
Anyway, repros are good for guys like me who always wanted a GG-1/Irvington set to run, but could care less about the “collector value”. Repros are good for guys like me who wanted a #44 Missile Train to shoot missiles with the kids, but didn’t want to hear or worry about the “investment” word.
If you’ve been burned by your “train investments” over and over again, and yet continue to play that game, then you seriously need to re-think your motives.
Trains are toys. They are to be put on the track and run.
Sometimes there are very old trains that do a good job running on the track.
Once you pass over, you cannot take with you and most of the time, family survivors cannot know what to do with the stuff anyhow and, out it goes for a buck or two… if that.
If YOU buy something, play with it. Have fun with it forget about your troubles for a little while.
Some of my larger gauge stuff has sat on the shelf 25+ years. They probably will still sit on the shelf another 25 years. Investment? No. Child toys put away because I am an adult with a spouse? Yes.
Do I go nutz over a train item? Yes. I will sell them for whatever the market will pay for it, 20 or 200 because sometimes the budget requires it. Or maybe because they sit sad in the box and not run at all.
That was a waste of money.
However, for a brief time in my childhood they ran, and how. Even today I recall how they would go. Maybe if Im smart, I will toss em onto ebay and sell the stuff for 20 so the next daddy can give it to his kid and run the heck out of them.
I once witnessed a train show some years back in Little Rock. There was a common trainset on sale for a few thosuand of dollars. It did not sell because it will take the entire show’s attendance to pass the hat and pool the money to buy it. To me that set only was worth 20 dollars per car or so and a few hundred for the engine. not 4000 dollars.
This may be a little off the topic but its with he topic also and that is what I really like about collecting and running my trains is that one day ( well even one hour) I might be steam rolling a 6-8-6 Pennsylvania freight or passenger train on my layout up in Pennsylvania and the next I’m running thru North Carolina heading towards Georgia on a Norfolk Southern engine or heck some how a NYC engine pulls into the same Depot as a NS does. It my railroad and I can run it any way I like[:D]
I guess down deep we all kinda hope some day all our trains will be worth millions but I hope we all know thats all in fantasy land also lol.
I guess bottom line have fun and run on what ever rail road you like even if its your fantisty
I know that most of the posters on this forum are operators of trains. However, there are others in this hobby who are collectors. It may be prewar, standard, postwar, mint items etc. From what I recall in the 80s or 90s, this section constituted the majority of train hobbiest. (I may be wrong) With some of the modern upgrades, the shift seems to be toward the high-rail operation of trains.
While they may be in the minority, there are still folks who still enjoy collecting trains. Just like any other collectable, people are interested in its value. It is part of collecting. If not, we would not have the number of price guides on the market. Just as hunting down that piece neede dfor your collection or combing the local garage sales hoping to find that rare item for a bargin. Some may not understand or enjoy this facet of the hobby but to each his own.
Buy trains to run and enjoy. Buy mutual funds, land, bonds, CD’s, or something else as an investment. Investing is hard enough when you study it and buy instruments for that purpose. Trying to guess what price someone will pay for a train years from now is a difficult proposition at best. Figuring out what the return would be is work.