The Legacy Cable for DCS

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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As I predicted about a month ago, DCS is going to be able to operate Legacy items. This is from the January 2009 issue of OGR magazine:

The Legacy Cable

A cable that links the Lionel Legacy system with the MTH TIU has been engineered, tested, and released for production. It is now available at retail. Using the new cable allows the Legacy Command base to be connected to the DCS TIU. This lets operators use a DCS handheld to control TMCC and Legacy engines on a layout. However, it is important to note that only TMCC commands can be sent to Lionel command control engines in this way.

Part # for this cable is 50-1032. Retail price is $19.95

http://www.mth-railking.com/detail3.asp?item=50-1032&eml=sales@cttrains.com

2

aka it won’t be any different than using a traditional command base to operate the trains. No Leagcy specific commands. You should also be aware that this method of operation may cause some of the same problems a TMCC user will run into if they mix a tradtional TMCC Command Base and a Legacy Commnad Base at the same time. You should never try to run the same locomotive from both remotes. A Legacy base issues absolute speed step commands while the older TMCC base uses realtive steps. These protocols should not be mixed while operating the same locomotive.

If you want to run Legacy and DCS on a single layout don’t mix them. If you want to run Legacy locomotives under TMCC via DCS you don’t need a Legacy base. Unless something changes dramatically regarding emulations/software protocols (aka Lionel and MTH agree to play nice) the cable, while a nice addition, may cause more problems than it solves.

3

So Chuck…it sounds like you already have this cable and tested it out. You must be one of the first in the country to have received one!!! [:O] Or is this all conjecture and guestimation on your part and are you still swimming in the denial river? [(-D] I seem to remember a whole bunch of folks saying DCS and Legacy will NEVER be compatible. This cable is just the first step towards MTH controlling all of Legacy…as it can already do for TMCC (even though there are those who are in denial about that too). C’mon, admit it. It sticks in your craw that MTH has already started on the road to compatibility.

Unless you actually HAVE the cable and have tested it out…let’s leave off the “may” and “maybe” and “might” comments. I seem to remember folks told me that exact same thing because I don’t have the Legacy system. [;)]

4

Dep, Chuck is just stating the obvious. Lionel has designed the Legacy base specifically so it will accept only TMCC commands from it’s port, but not Legacy commands. So even if MTH wanted to, there’s no way their cable can issue Legacy commands from the TIU. The Legacy base will not accept them. Just another benefit of the train wars :).

5

Dep,

Folks far smarter and more knowledgeable about Legacy than you(as hard as I’m sure it is for you to believe that such a thing exists) have stated that the Legacy base WILL NOT accept Legacy specific commands through the serial port.

The folks I’m referring to are the likes of Neil Young and Jon of the Electric RR company-i.e. folks who actually had a hand in designing the Legacy system.This was confirmed by someone on the OGR forum who copied/replicated the Legacy serial port signals, and couldn’t get it to respond to them when connected.

So, let’s get one thing out of the way

DCS will never control Legacy-specific features without serious modification to the base firmware/hardware.

If you actually bothered to read the press release that you copied and pasted, you will even see it stated plainly that the cable offered makes no promises of controlling Legacy-specific features, contrary to what you said in your original post(“As I predicted about a month ago, DCS is going to be able to operate Legacy items.”).

6

WOW! Lots of folks swimming in denial and misquoting up a storm!! [(-D]

Let me repeat EXACTLY what it said in the article:

“This lets operators use a DCS handheld to control TMCC and Legacy engines on a layout.”

I never uses the word “features” and neither did the article. You guys are in such a rush to swim in that denial river that you are inserting words and inferences into my post I never made. Find the EXACT word “features” in my post anywhere. You can’t. Do I think MTH controls will eventually be able to control Legacy “features”? Probably yes. If there is a big enough demand for it. But since Legacy “features” are already being incorporated into MTH locos (like the “qwilling whistle” that everyone is so ga-ga over), I doubt there will be a big demand for it. DCS already gives scale MPH…something the Legacy system doesn’t do. All of the TMCC commands are now controllable by DCS. Why would I NOT think Legacy “features” wouldn’t eventually be controlled too?

Oh yeah…“never say never”. Famous never quotes…“we’ll never break the sound barrier”, “we’ll never land on the moon”, and "MTH will never control TMCC (and now Legacy). [(-D]

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Not trying to ruffle any feathers but if Iam not mistaken I could swear I read sometime back that the Legacy opperating systam is pattened. Therefore it would break patten laws to access these features of legacy on a legacy base. Iam almost positive also that the TMCC operating system was released to the open market (Atlas,K-Line Weaver,Ect.) that is why MTH was able to opperate the TMCC system without any reprocusions. Just my two cents worth.

8

I have been running Legacy and TMCC thru the DCS TIU since I received my new Legacy setup. I made my own cable and it works flawlessly. I use the DCS hand held for mth locos and the legacy remote for lionels locos, and so far no troubles with signals getting crossed so that TMCC locos start acting funny I can run dcs and tmcc or legacy side by side under each other and narry a hicup. I think I have 5.00 invested in parts 20.00 is a bit much for what is basically 3 wire setup. $oo

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“Why would I NOT think Legacy “features” wouldn’t eventually be controlled too?”

I don’t make assumptions about why people believe what they believe :). But after their experiences with MTH in recent years, I don’t think Lionel will allow MTH to monkey with their system anymore than MTH will allow others to monkey with THEIR system. I think the likelihood of MTH putting features in DCS to control Legacy specific functions (as opposed to TMCC loco functions) is exactly zero for legal and technical reasons. It’s not in their interests anyhow as it promotes sale of Legacy locos in addition or instead of PS2 locos.

By the way, DCS does not control any of TMCC’s track, route, accessory and similar functions, only locomotive commands. And it only does this through emulation. Ultimately you need TMCC (as well as DCS) to control Lionel locos through DCS, and vice versa. The only difference is those who primarily use PS2 locos can control TMCC locomotive functions (and basic Legacy functions corresponding to TMCC) through the DCS handheld. No one in their right mind would use primarily DCS if they had primarily TMCC and Legacy locos. Vice versa for TMCC and Legacy usage. It’s a straw man argument in my opinion.

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I don’t see any big news here. DCS has always been able to operate Legacy items. I can’t believe they had to “engineer” a computer cable for this. I wonder what their amortization schedule for that looks like…

Rob

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Neil: We’ve had this discussion before on another thread. The fact is the newest release of DCS controls ALL functions of TMCC. There is NO need to buy a CAB-1, and suggesting that there is, is just wasting people’s money and misleading them. BTW…I have my under-tree setup going and I am using DCS to control a Lionel FM Trainmaster Jersey Central (Lionel 6-18321 from the Postwar Celebration series). EVERY command I can give to the loco via CAB-1 is now available in DCS. So please stop posting that misinformation. As to Lionel defending the Legacy stuff…MTH has already used the term “quillable whistles” to describe their version of that “feature”. Nobody has filed any lawsuits yet. I don’t really see any spectacular “features” that would make a Legacy loco worth buying over an identical Protosounds loco. Oh wait…the “vibrating handset”. Yep…gotta have that!!! [(-D] BTW…DCS also controls the function of TMCC features in rolling stock. The crane cars and their accompanying cabooses are also controllable from DCS. DCS doesn’t control "TMCC’s track, route, accessory and similar functions’. Are youy saying DCS doesn’t control Lionel accessory controls? So what? Why would anyone with a mainly DCS layout use Lionel accessory controls???
You are getting your compatibilities mixed up. The point is not to make DCS control EVERY single Lionel device. The point is to have DCS control locos and rolling stock for a person who HAS DCS. If a person has a DCS layout, why would he give two squirts if it doesn’t operate a Lionel switch controller? He wouldn’t be USING one in the first place.

Rob: We know that DCS has been able to control Legacy items via a TMCC base. But those bases are going to go the way of the dodo. The release of the new cable means that you can get a Legacy base instead of a TMCC base and still be able to control both Legacy and TMCC locos. Wouldn’t make much sense to buy a TMCC base nowadays, since Lionel is obviously going to eliminate i

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Actually, the cab-1 is much more useful for trouble shooting any TMCC problems than the DCS handheld. If you had a layout of any size using TMCC locos you’d realize that, but you don’t. The fact remains that the only utility of the DCS TIU to TMCC cable is to allow use of the DCS handheld to control TMCC loco functions for those primarily using DCS. It’s useless for those who primarily use TMCC or have reasonably similar numbers of TMCC and PS2 locos.

As for your statement about the Legacy base, it’s plain old wrong. You cannot buy a Legacy base separately from the Legacy handheld. So why in the world would anyone want to use the DCS handheld to control Legacy locomotives and not be able to access unique Legacy functions, of which there are dozens? Speed brake, quillable whistle, standard train speeds are only a few Legacy locomotive functions you will not be able to access with the DCS handheld. So why not simply use the Legacy handheld since you’ve already bought it? I think if you were more familiar with Legacy’s features and the system’s characteristics you’d realize how preposterous your ideas about using the DCS handheld for Legacy locos is. DCS works well for PS2 locos and can control TMCC locos reasonably well but will be a poor second choice for future Lionel locos.

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I guess I still don’t understand why a person with a DCS layout would want a Legacy base. It just seems like overkill and a solution to a problem that DCS owners don’t need or want to solve…

Rob

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You want a Legacy base because eventually a TMCC base won’t be available for purchase. Future new purchasers of DCS will probably also buy TMCC and Legacy locos. So with a Legacy base you would be able to control both. But I must agree that the few perks of Legacy (vibrating handset, quilling whistles, better TMCC control which DCS now also has) offer very little impetus to shell out for a Legacy system. Oh yeah…and this also to Neil…don’t think for a minute that Legacy components like the base-only won’t be available for purchase individually. If nothing else, E-bay will be a great source for them. [:)]

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I think the same thing can be said of the TMCC Command Base to an even greater degree. There will be a glut of them everywhere, including eBay. For pennies on the dollar.

Rob

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Hey, Dep, if you want to live in a purple shaded dream land provided by Mike Wolf, not knowing or having experienced the features of Legacy, it’s no skin off my nose. Just make sure you keep those PS2 loco batteries charged or get one of those BCR replacements for each of your locos. Us TMCC Legacy guys don’t need any batteries for our locos :).

I do doubt you’ll find many or even any Legacy bases sold separately on eBay. They’re (separate bases) not going to be of use to those who use primarily TMCC/Legacy and they are sold only with the handheld, so you’ll be seeing them sold as a pair in almost all instances. Unlike Legacy, the TMCC command base has always been available separately. I think this is Lionel’s way of making sure you MTH guys pay through the nose to obtain a Legacy base :). To go with your multiple TIUs :).

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Man this is very old news.[zzz]

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“So why in the world would anyone want to use the DCS handheld to control Legacy locomotives and not be able to access unique Legacy functions, of which there are dozens? Speed brake, quillable whistle, standard train speeds are only a few Legacy locomotive functions you will not be able to access with the DCS handheld.”

If I had the Latest Revision of the DCS software (Remote and TIU) I would need to know EXACTLY what these DOZENS OF UNIQUE LEGACY FUNCTIONS ARE…before buying a Legacy base and remote. Then I can determine how desirable these functions would be…to me.

Would any of the Legacy savvy folks care to list them so I can make an informed decision?

I’ll start it off:

  1. Quillable whistle

  2. Handheld vibrator

  3. Finer control of TMCC equipment (Dep says this is debateable)

  4. Speed Brake

  5. Standard Train Speeds

  6. etc.

  7. etc.

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Neil: ROFLM*O[(-D]

Perhaps it is you looking through those orange and blue tinted glasses that is being deluded by that lawyer-loving company. BTW…that has to be a weird effect having one lens orange and one blue. Psychedelic!!! [:D]

But think about this…complaints have been rampant about the Legacy system sucking down batteries like crazy and the charger getting hot enough to fry eggs on. By using the DCS handheld you solve BOTH of those problems immediately. Maybe the repeated loss of communication situation would also be cured!!! Wow!!! All that for a $20 dollar cable and you don’t even have to box anything up and ship it to Lionel like you didn’t have to do for their “upgrade”. [:O]

20

Jim,

If deputy claims that it’s debatable whether or not Legacy runs TMCC locos any better, well, let’s just say what little credibility he had left with me is gone.

TMCC locos, especially those with Odyssey, do run significantly better under Legacy.

To me, though, the biggest advantage comes with Legacy locos. Honestly, the operation of a Legacy loco under Legacy has to be seen to be believed.

Legacy locos have 200 speed steps(only under Legacy control), with unbelievable low speed control. A Legacy loco can cruise along at 1.5 smph all day-better than any DCS loco I’ve seen. Lionel claims that, by tweaking the software, they can get the low speed down to half this(the new switchers promise to do this). Futhermore, because of the way speed steps are set up, you get a huge amount of resolution at low speeds. It takes 20 speed steps to go from 1.5 smph to 5 mph.

Add to this a momentum control that actually works and is useful, unlike the excersize in frustration known as a momentum control you get with TMCC I.

If you own an engine with Legacy, you are really short changing yourself if you don’t own a Legacy system to control it. This is coming from someone who owns both a Legacy loco and the system, not someone who, unlike others on here, likes to make posts about how minimal the advantages of a system they don’t own are.

As for the original post:

As others have been saying, this honestly isn’t a big deal in any way.

I don’t think this has been said quite so plainly on here yet, so I’ll say it-at most, all DCS is capable of doing is making the Legacy base act like a TMCC I base.

Th