So I have a few other thoughts on why there has been such a hubbub around this new forum set up.
I believe that Kalmbach has overestimated the computer skills of the average Trains.com forum user. Most people who have an interest in trains, especially the modelers, are on the higher end of the age curve and have better things to do than learn how to operate a computer. Their modeling skills are superb but learning to master a computer is probably at the bottom of the priority list for their hobby. So when they come to a site like this, they get frustrated as it is not an easy to use site.
If you are good with computers and have experience on internet forums in general, then this forum should be OK. Yes it is missing things like the IMG insert button and pictures of the smileys but it has a lot of other good attributes. It’s just that it is not an easy forum to navigate to make the best use of these features. Works for Kalmbach as the forum software ties into their subscriber data base but they seem to have forgotten who is actually using it.
This could be alleviated to some extent by more active moderation. Bergie has only posted 6 times since the changeover (and not at all in August) and has not addressed some of the issues raised, such as posting images. He only has a total of 205 posts, rather low for the only moderator on the site.
Other forums I am on have an owner/administrator (like a Bergie) and then rely on active moderation with volunteers from the community. Kalmbach should look at this option to help the site along.
I agree that there is surprisingly little response from the moderators given the number of comments. At the very least, a nicely worded “we’re working on it,” but nothing at all. I’ve already eaten crow in another thread for saying there is nothing wrong with it. I guess if they only tested it on IE6, they wouldn’t have thought it was a problem, but obviously some versions of Macs and IE7 have issues. And as river_eagle points out, I went to about 20 other sites with IE7 and did not have a single problem. I even lowered the security to nothing and went on here and it still doesn’t work. There is definitely something amiss.
Yes the silence of the moderators and MR in general is thunderous.The troubles some members are having should be address…Even the fore mention “we are looking into it” would suffice instead of silence.[8].
This is an existing situation I’ve pointed out repeatedly on this forum, citing the high average age of the “typical” modeler and his acknowledged lack of computer skills based on available statistics. But these points seem to go right over the heads of the powers that be and the young newbie crowd so prevelant on this forum. All one needs to do is look around here to see how very few posters claim to have been in the hobby more than just a few years…when, in fact, most model railroaders you encounter at shows or meetings will admit to being in it virtually for a lifetime. It may come as a shock to some but the number of older, skilled and experienced modelers, who are at best marginal computer/internet users, vastly out numbers the younger, computer literate, people in the hobby. Rather then helping, I’ve seen the increasing complexity of the internet and computer use act more as a dividing wedge between generations of modelers, rather than as any really great assistance.
I agree with all of the above. As one of the younger group (at a mere 33yrs aged), we should strive to help some of more challenged colleagues (who come from more, um, “vintage” stock). What seems common place to us, is difficult for others. The lack of moderator input is VERY telling. The problem, is that despite PR, they seem to have no incentive to fix things. For example, the gaming community has large forums for MMORPG’s, where the moderators are very active for one reason: unhappy customers means less subscriptions, means LESS MONEY. Therefore, they have dozens of moderators. Here, I bet that poor ol’ Bergie is alone in his moderation, since there is a less direct benefit (e.g. most of us will still buy MR, even if the forums fail/are not working well.) Therefore, if any of them are reading this, I would consider letting some of us computer savvy folks / modellers help moderate. Remember, don’t take it out on Bergie… many of us have been in his shoes where we have to support an underfunded and under-appreciated project.
Shadownix said: Remember, don’t take it out on Bergie… many of us have been in his shoes where we have to support and underfunded and under-appreciated project. Been there done that more times than I care to remember.
I have been exposed to and have used computers since 1982 and have been in a full time IT position for over 6 years now. I consider myself to be computer literate and have helped others with computer issues for over 10 years now.
That said, I am still waiting for this forum to work out the “bugs” so to speak because I have had more issues since the change over than before the change over to CS. If you ask me it is not as “user friendly” as the previous forum version.
In many of the technology courses that I attended relating to project management, software development, etc… it was stressed time and time again that when upgrading and making changes to a computer system, application, program, it is the customers who eventually drive the product. If the customers are not happy with an application or are not happy with a new program, or are not happy with a new systems change they will not use it! If the customer has a hard time making the new system work, then productivity for the company also drops.
In the case of the MR forum change over, it is a step backwards for me! I can get around all the issues, but I should not have to do so. It takes me more time to post than it did before, as I said before it is not “user friendly”. When I make a relatively long post I will use a word processor program to type my initial post, then copy and paste it into the post. With the new forum the page width gets extended and the formatting is off. I then have to paste the post into a text editor, change the page formatting, and then paste again into the forum post. This is way too many steps to have to take for a simple forum post.
There are some nice bells and whistles that have been added and that is great, but I am hoping that Bergie and the powers that be at Kalmback will consider the customer in their review of any further forum changes.
The lack of moderators as very apparent by showing all the Flame wars, repeat posts and stuff like that. That was about the worst problem the old forum had, and it still is a bad problem. I think the only reason why we’ve had very few flame wars is becuase none of the flamers can’t figure out how to work the forum. My forum that i have I am very strict about starting flame wars. As soon as i see something that would start a flame war i delete that post, if it countines I delete the thread or lock it. We could really do for some moderators here.
You want to see flaming?! Head over to the “railroading” forum and jump into threads dealing with “Is this forum dead” and others with high viewing and response counts. It is worth an hour’s time to wade through some of them…the one about “What happened to Milwaukee Road” is still on-going and as vitriolic as ever.
Apart from our several image and quoting issues here, we have it pretty good.
While I agree this forum could certainly use some volunteer moderators, I suspect the powers that be at Kalmbach would be against giving the keys to the web forums to non-employees. In my observations of Kalmbach and their web presence, I sense they prefer a pretty conservative approach to this internet stuff – which translates into more of a corporate mindset and less of a community mindset.
But what I see the more progressive companies doing with their web presence is finding cadre of volunteers you can trust to manage and provide good content, create blogs, develop wikis and so on. In some cases it’s open to the world like Wikipedia is, where anyone can literally add and edit entries on what has become the worlds largest online encylopedia. The open source software movement says we can trust people to work together for the common good, even without payment.
But I don’t think Kalmbach is up for that, being a rather old school business founded in the depression era of the last century. In some ways it’s too bad – I’d love to see Kalmbach take a more progressive view of how they can use and even exploit the web.
But it also means there’s a chance someone in the hobby who is a really progressive thinker could “eat their lunch” sometime in the next decade with regards to building a community on the internet that takes the hobby by storm. I think sometime in the next decade print magazines will dramatically shrink in influence, to be virtually replaced by a web 2.0 type interactive online community. I’m not sure Kalmbach is that visionary to see this sort of thing coming. I hope I’m wrong, but I fear I’m not.
I hope you are wrong Joe! It would be nice to see Kalmbach embrace new technology with more gusto and implement some of the things you mentioned such as blogs, Wiki, etc…
I wish it weren’t so, but when I see Kalmbach’s lack of interest in digitizing their old issues and selling collections (their reason - it would drop the value of printed back issues, which has already dropped to practically nothing) - I too fear that the days of their magazines are numbered. Digital technology is profoundly changing the way things are done, and Kalmbach is not seeing it. I would much rather buy a DVD at the end of every year than a storage binder for the past year’s issues. The perceived lack of concern for correcting the drawbacks and bugs of both the old and new forum software sends the same message. Instead, Kalmbach repackages articles from years and decades ago, and tries to get me to buy a repackaged collection for $19 - without any input from me as to what articles are worthwhile - that I already own in the same format and media I already have them in. And I’m one of those “vintage”, less computer-literate folks being referred to!
That’s not what Kalmbach said. That’s what a forum member said. The only thing I’ve seen Kalmbach say is that they don’t know how to make back the investment in digitizing the back issues.
It’s likely that more back issues are sold by other organizations/individuals than by Kalmbach itself.
Hmmm … have you looked at the websites for the other major model railroading magazines? Kalmbach’s not perfect, but they are much further along than virtually any of their competition.
But hey, complain away. Kalmbach should be saying more on this forum about the quirks and bugs. But let’s not pillory them for things they didn’t say. And viewed in relation to their competitors, it seems to me that they are trying a number of new things on-line.
It also may be worth noting that there have been many attempts at digitial-only model railroad sites. Quite a number of these fade away pretty quickly or wheeze along with a few posts a day. It seems to me that Kalmbach is at least trying to do something that very few have done successfully in any field – blending print and on-line. Before I left high-tech and went back to school, I worked with a lot of organizations (traditional and new) who tried and failed in the on-line world. It’s not an easy line to walk between the old and the new.
Yes, Kalmbach should fix the bugs. Yes, they should be saying more about the process. And maybe they should have done more testing with differnet browsers before launching. But at least they are trying.
Yes, your point is a good one, Kalmbach is certainly doing more than most other model RR web sites.
However, just because others may have tried digital only sites in the past doesn’t mean a newer, more interactive web 2.0 community site would likewise fail.
But to Kalmbach, their business should be that they are a communication hub for hobbists, not to just a printing outfit. If you look at what progressive companies are doing on the internet these days, the whole communication model is being re-invented.
The changes are fundamental, the way our society now communicates because of TV, as compared to how we did things before TV is one example.
Print publications will never go away, but they will fade like radio faded once TV matured. A truly interactive rich topic-on-demand internet (with prices far cheaper than the printed page) is going to completely and permanently alter the print business. In another 10 years it will be clear to everyone that things will never be the same in the print business … at least that’s my crystal ball gazing prediction based on what I’m seeing in the future of web design (web 2.0) discussions I have been involved in as part of my job as a professional web developer.
The only problem I’m having with the forum, at this writing, is with posting pictures. I’ve used IE v6 and Firefox and I still can’t figure out how to do it. I wonder if Kalmbach wants this to be a ‘link only’ operation vs. having the pictures embedded in the message.
If anyone has figured out how to do it without having to become a web master, would you please let me know.
This has been posted elsewhere, but just type [img*] before and [/img*] after the URL (link location of the photo) – but leave out the *s (I just left them in there for this description so it woudl show up normally.)
I fully agree with Joe on this one. The newest technologies in both information sharing and hardware make this inevitable. The interactive web will make magazines (along with numerous other news and entertainment outlets) obsolete within 10 years (or 5!). The coming age of paper quality monitors, in the form of reading tablets, eyeware, etc. will further erode the desire for individuals to have “paper” access to materials. Why would I want a rack of magazines when I could have access to a network of information provided by multiple sources that is organized and presented to me in the organization format that I most prefer.This is the future of information sharing. I dare to say that Joe’s website is more organized along this aspect than Kalmbach’s.
As to the digitization of “older” issues: This is a false claim. For years, third parties have been digitizing MRR issues to make available to academic institutions through services like EBSCOHost. I have personally seen digitized issues of MRR going back nearly 10 years. Certainly, Kalmbach must have the rights to this material. I believe they rightly fear the digitization of this material due to the file sharing piracy that already goes on in the entertainment industry. In fact, availability of old MRR issues through academic information services has recently been halted. It is not a technical issue.
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