Aerials have been studied, but they have been inconclusive regard direction of travels and any reversals of biases. It is hard to comprehend biases change just through crossovers and not some type of physical way of getting one track over or under another. My list of to-dos has just expanded (i.e., to visit Arizona and New Mexico). It has been so long since I had an accurate mental overview of the Transcon in those two states everything over there is foggy in my mind.
Anyway … While coming into Seligman, AZ this past quick trip, at CP EAST SELIGMAN a staging area of some sort was observed and photographed.
These items struck me as rail joint insulators, but I don’t know … I never had seen a pile of such before.
There has been some mention in this thread about the old Cajon Pass tunnels. The any that need a visual, the below photo of where the tunnels use to be is offered.
About mileposts … Am I correct in understanding that the 1960 relocated Arizona line does not have mileposts suffixed “A” but only the last one, M.P. 418A, which is the second M.P. 418, and from M.P. 418A to M.P. 419 it is only a distance of 3016 ft.?
And, then there is Ash Fork …
The below photo looks east at the once double-track Los Angele-Chicago thru-line, with only one track remaining that even
KP, the following will attempt to answer your inquirys(s).
The entire Transcon from Barstow to Belen now has CTC which permits the DS to run all trains, on either main line, in any direction, crossing them over and back by controlling the signals and power switches, and using radio communication. The 44 mile line change instituted this with reverse # 24 crossovers at Williams Jct, Perrin, Double, Eagle Nest and at Crookton.
Santa Fe’s practice has been, where there is a substantial variance from a 5280 mile to use the A suffix and then revert to the existing Mile Posts. In this situation the new line is longer than the former by 3016. The ‘A’ designation is also used where the two main lines are not parallel and the most recently constructed line will have ‘A’ MP’s. Near to you, as an example, would be the Ash Hill location east of Ludlow, CA.
I can only speculate about the material stockpiles at Seligman. The old high star switch stands would seem to have been salvaged from yard tracks being removed. If this assumption is correct then it would likely follow that the other materials came from similar projects (or the same one) and the stockpile is at a convinient location to store material where they may be under some security and be picked up later.
I see two wyes at Ash Fork about 1/2 mile apart but do not see the ‘overlay’ you mention. Perhaps the two I see can be explained by knowing the history there. When the line to Phoenix from Ash Fork was originally built (1890’s) it connected to the Santa Fe main line (single track then) at the east side of Ash Fork. As is evident, the Phoenix line now leaves Ash Fork at the west end of town. So it is possible (likely) that the wye at the east side was located to facilitate the reversing of Phoenix equipment. It could have served the additional purpose of being the main line wye.
They’re insulators, alright, but not for rail joints - they fit between the rust-brown spring clips in the 2 bags at the upper left of your photo, and the rail, so as to better insulate the rails from the concrete ties and hence from each other for proper functioning of the signal system. I’ll see if I can find a link or close-up photo of them in use so you can see how they work.
Paul North.
EDIT: P.S. - Those spring clips look like the U3220 by Unit Rail Mfg. as I suspected, and here’s the link to their webpage for clips, insulators and related products:
“X” is used for that, not “A”. Former eastward track on Cajon, former eastward track east of Ash Hill, former eastward track east of Crookton etc-- they all use “X” (or at least they did in SFe days).
The left part of the wye on the aerial’s right looks like it goes through another wye on the left, and continues westward on an abandoned right-of-way to the west part of town.
That abandoned right-of-way goes through even a third wye on the west side of town before it realigns with the traditional abandoned Transcon line on the west side of town. That third wye is visible by moving the map leftward (west) a few thousand scale feet.
The history of lines is a fascinating subject in itself, if that history is retrievable. Like in Cajon Pass here in California. Many railfans and railroaders don’t know the present three-track line railroad west of CP CAJON up until the 1940’s was on the camera side of the below bridged creek.
Anyway, let me digest the rest of your reply. The forum is fortunate to have someone like you that actually worked on the Arizona line relocation and is willing let his experience and knowledge be tapped!
Thanks so much.
Paul D. North, Jr. (8-19):
That was something new (at least for me) about insulating clips. I wonder if they act is a wear cushion?
For years the railroads have done without them (at lea
Probably only indirectly. Wear at that point in the assembly - at the edge of the base of the rail and the mating surface on the railclip holder, and on the top corner of the rail base - has usually not been a problem. Instead, that wear has been mainly under the rail seat area, where most of the weight and flexure occurs. Towards the bottom of the linked page, you’ll see several plastic pads, abrasion plates, and and abrasion pads which are much larger for installation there to address that problem, although one - the “U1036 3-Part Pad Assy” - does appear to also include the insulator as one of those parts.
If the railroads around there have been using concrete ties without the plastic insulators for years before as you say, the obvious and rational explanation - to me anyway - is that those railroads have recently found or concluded that the concrete ties by themselves are not reliable enough insulators to keep the rails electrically isolated as much as they want. Whatever the electrical insulation performance of that system has been there in the dry SouthWest in years past, with the recent higher traffic levels and dependable signal system performance becoming more important than
timz is correct about the X designation, my memory failed once more. Thanks timz.
KP, your aerial photo is better than mine and I now see a possible wye on the north side of the track which lies westerly from the more prominent wye, both of which are east of Doublea Ranch Rd.
Also looking at your Mapquest photo the connection of the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix line may be shown on the south side of the Santa Fe main and paralleling the current City of Ash Fork street that connects to Doublea Ranch Rd. If indeed this mark on the earth is the remains of the connection between the Santa Fe and the SFP&P then it also appears that there was a wye created here too as another mark on the earth seems to make an easterly connection. If these marks are the wye used to turn the Phoenix trains then the wye(s) to the north had another purpose.
Ash Fork was a busy terminal with a large station grounds. Prior to 1960 helper service emanated here and so a substantial mechanical department facility and staff worked here.
I was able to access a 1916 Santa Fe station map, 1’ = 100’, and it shows only the one wye track located in the middle of the station grounds. The wye and overlay shown to the east on KP’s aerial are not depicted on this official map.
Also, this 1916 map shows the Prescott - Phoenix line connection at the east end of Ash Fork with no wye connection eastward to the Santa Fe main tracks.
A brief review: Up into the 1950’s in the WEST Santa Fe trains were RIGHT-track running under “double-track” rules, with each track signaled in only one direction. In the EAST, trains were LEFT-track running. The magical transition point was a number of miles west of Ash Fork, AZ, where one track went over the other.
That magical point of transition disappeared with the big line relocation in 1959-1960. So, where is the transition point today? In Winslow, AZ! But, the situation is very different because one track does NOT go over the other.
In Winslow, there is a fueling facility, with what looks like four tracks on aerials. Any track can be used and it is slow going through the area. Left biased trains from the east end-up right biased as they head west and vice versa.
A lot has transpired since the Williams-Crookton line change which became operational 12-19-1960.
Now the Transcon is all CTC between Belen and San Bernardino ( much more CTC than this but this is the current subject). So the DS can have any train operate on either track no matter which direction it is going. With CP’s every 8-12 miles trains pass, or meet , wherever the DS chooses in his quest to expedite priority trains.
I have more info about Ash Fork than in the previous posts.
When the Valley of the Sun began shipping fresh fruits and vegetables to eastern markets they of course were shipped in cars refrigerated with ice stored in bins at each end of the car. As the ice melted it had to be replenished so ice plants were established at appropriate locations. Ash Fork was one of those locations. But there was the problem with the connection at the east end of Ash Fork since trains entered the yard with a west movement, while their destination was eastward.
That is why the Phoenix line was relocated to the west end of the yard. The ice plant and ice loading platform were built on the north side of the existing yard so that the refigerated trains, through a series of crossovers, could pull along the ice loading docks and then leave Ash Fork with an eastward move. The wye track located north of the Transcon and east of the yard allowed the Phoenix line engines to be turned for return to Phoenix and the Transcon locomotives to be coupled for the continuing eastward move of the reefer train. Of course the wye would have been used for other moves as necessary such as turning the helper movements to Williams.
Yes, a lot HAS transpired since the Williams-Crookton line change!
The “Transcon” is now all CTC, and in some places triple-track is present, as in San Bernardino, CA at the far western approach to Cajon Pass.
Back when you surveyed and plotted the Williams-Crookton line change in Arizona, AT&SF was basically a double-track railroad, so converting that area back in 1959-1960 to a two-track line was sort of a novelty.
Traffic volumes have at least tripled since your work in 1959-60. No wonder BNSF CTC’ed and basically two-tracked the whole Los Angeles-Chicago line.
Have you, diningcar, visited your old haunting ground in Arizona of late? If you have, undoubtedly you said to yourself, “I actually plotted this! Wow!” What an element of personal satisfaction you undoubtedly received, something probably none of us others at the forum will ever have.
Now that my final personal mystery that stemmed from your past work has been figured out and posted about, I hoped your satisfaction has been broadened.
Mr. Harrier, thank you for your kind and very generous words. There were more than 60 engineers of various types working on the Williams-Crookton line change. Yes I have been back and have conducted tours for friends before the 9-11 events caused BNSF to restrict access. It was a grand experience for a young man.
The original line (would now be called Main 1) was approximately the same length after the line change. But the circuitous second main was shortened about three miles.
Tried to open the MK video but got a message that it had been removed. I have seen this video a while back and will try to locate the source and post it here.
On February 10, 2012, “Transition Mystery Solved!” was posted. Yesterday, March 5, 2012, another natural crossover was discovered by K.P. that puts a different slant to the matter. It is unbelievable that K.P. missed it in the first place …
So, the OLD, pre-1960 line was basically right biased, except for a stretch of left biased trackage on either side of Ash Fork, AZ.
With old and new lines, Winslow, AZ was still the transition point, with biases west of Winslow generally right handed, whereas east of Winslow was left handed. That must have been especially pronounced in Automatic Block Signal (ABS) days of “Double Track” (as opposed to todays “two-tracks”).
In the late 1970’s / early 1980’s K.P. personally saw the left biased route EAST of Winslow, obviously evidenced by the then proliferation of cantilevered signal bridges compared to mast signals used for right biased trackage west of Seligman.
An aspect of this topic was mentioned in the thread “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates.” BNSF6400 responded with two key replies in that thread. I found BNSF6400’s reasoning and sources quite credible. He indicated the east of Ash Fork natural crossover was NOT a natural crossover at all, but that it only had that appearance.
The posts by BNSF6400 are on page 161 (March 6, 2012) of the “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” thread.
So, right running double-track from the west (with Automatic Block Signals) reversed to left running at the natural crossover WEST of Ash Fork, and remained left running all the way to Belen, NM. Here and there are geographic locations that make left-running practical.
With the big 1959-1960 line relocation, the Seligman-Winslow, AZ trackage was CTC’ed, and in that manner biases got reversed, and NOT with a natural crossover. So, the February 10, 2012 post on this page 4 titled “Transition Mystery Solved!” was basically right.
In the “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” thread, ccltrains mentioned a video on the AT&SF reroute. Cacole (on March 8, 2012, page 162) in that thread found a link to such a video, which link is duplicated below for interested parties.
Although I rarely vacation to Arizona I have found this discussion quite interesting. I love abandon train tunnels and all the more better if you can visit them through a national park. I have never heard of the Johnson Canyon tunnel. It must have been in a very remote place as there doesn’t seem to be any photos of it when it was active.
I know this post is quite old, but I visisted the area in question 9/13/15 and thought you guys might enjoy a picture of the previously mentioned tunnel! I have video of the approach as well, I’ll post that after I get it uploaded.
Your post initially baffled me, as the tunnel’s location was unknown. The best I could determine, the tunnel is somewhere between Williams and Ash Fork (AZ). The double-track line between those points had the appearance of paired track, and each main took a different route. With the line relocation of this thread (1959-1960), both mains between Williams and Ash Fork were not needed. The main that Santa Fe abandoned was the tunnel route you mentioned. The surviving main continues today and goes southwardly from Ask Fork to Phoenix.
Have I, etro, surmised correctly so far?
A video link is below of getting to and going through
