Good point. But I think experienced buyers and sellers tend to have an idea what price something will fetch and sellers try to get the price to that point. They can establish a high reserve, a high starting bid, or even a low bid to spark a bidding war.
If they have a high feedback count, then they are probably experienced and know what the item is and its condition and its near market value, and I would be cautious of ambigous descriptions.
I guess if the seller’s offering doesn’t feel right, its probably best to avoid it.
Being a long horse trader I have a good handle on what a item is worth…
As I mention several times before on various threads some times modelers don’t know the value of what they have.
As a example…
Bev-Bel made a one run of a certain road name like (say) Berlin Mills Ry Jade Green 50’ boxcar.These cars can fetch up to $40.00 whereas more common tan ACF 50’ Atlantic & Western boxcar will bring $8-10.00 on a good day.
Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don’t know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over ‘market value’. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don’t thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion.
the seller didnt know, or mention, the missing headlight lens…yeah right. “as is” lets him sleep better, hoping he gets by with it without the buyer contesting it. if i sold you that engine, i would have told you like it really is…glad you got it fixed…
Well…to get off on a boring tangent: I think in the legal world, when it defines market value as a willing buyer and willing seller, there is an implied assumption that both parties are reasonably informed.
When buying or selling a house, most people hire a professional, an agent, who has a current database at hand of what comparable properties are going for. That’s how they determine the list price. If an uninformed seller does not hire a professional, and willingly lists their “$100,000” house for $50,000, and a willing buyer snaps it up, I don’t think the owners of other comparable houses would consider $50,000 to be market value.
Or a knowledgeable car collector willingly buys an original 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible out of a willing little old ladiy’s barn for $5,000.
I think both parties need to be reasonably informed, not just willing, in order for a transaction to be considered market value
Sorry,Rich that’s not always the case especially if you had two having a full throttle go at a bidding war and end up paying far more then the item is worth.
How can a blue box car be worth more then $10.00? Yet,I’ve seen BIN prices that was twice the normal going price.
How can a very common BB SW7 with no handrails have a BIN price of $65.00? You can buy a P2K switcher for that.
Larry, I will agree with you that Doughless should have no reason to be sorry. The notion of market value can be a valid part of this discussion.
The problem with trying to determine market value by placing a dollar amount on an item in advance of its sale is that it is totally subjective.
For example, my wife and I collected Department 56 ceramic houses for awhile. There was a book published annually with “market values” for each item. Ridiculous. Market value, says who? The author of the book? Market values for those books were based upon eBay sale prices as well as third party transactions of a few national exchanges.
Going back to model railroad items, if you look at the Completed Items section of eBay and the Sold section of eBay, you can quickly determine the breakpoint between sold and unsold items and the average price of sold items. In other words, market value.
Dougless, don’t be sorry. Your initial comment added to the discussion, it did not detract from it.
Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
I will give you another example. This past summer, I was in the process of putting together a set of 8 Walthers non-plated Super Chief cars. My average purchase price on eBay was approximately $50. But I still needed the observation car which was available as a Buy It Now for $100 or more. They just sat there unsold. So, I finally emailed the seller and offered $80 which he accepted. Willing, happy and informed buyer and seller. Market value of the observation car? $80. That is about what that car sells for ever since. It became a benchmark for buyers.
I’ve watched this thread with interest and decided to throw in my 10 cents…
I collect post war (WWII) Lionel trains, stamps and coins. Each of those groupings have annual catalogs from various sources touting current market value. The experts in all these hobby venues will tell you the same thing, that those published values are - at best - what a brick & mortar retailer will sell the item for. There may be exceptions, but they are very few and very far between - often the result of a couple hard headed bidders in heated competition.
I’ve bought and sold stuff (mostly trains) on Ebay for 13 years. As others here have said, “market value” comes down to what a willing buyer and willing seller will agree to. Its as simple as that.
The catch in all this is that an item may sell for minimum value on one day, and max value another day. Buying and Selling in an auction venue is really just a crapshoot. In example, last year I had 12 offerings of Athearn cars go unsold the weeks before Christmas. After Christmas, I relisted at the same prices and 10 quickly got bids, and three of the offerings had some minor bidding competition.
Once again, if you are going to buy off Ebay (or any venue), check feedback, seller info, read the fine print, assume NOTHING, and ask questions.
The sellers feeback rating is critical, especially on used items. For me, it always has to be 100%.
The sellers feedback on new items is important but for big time sellers, the rating is almost always less than 100% because a few buyers ar always going to be sour grapes. Item not as described, delivery too slow, never received the item, seller is a moron, etc. But if the feedback is lower than 99%, forget it.
If the seller has thousands of sales and 99% feed back I will research the negative for the reasons.I found 99% of the time it was the buyer expecting more then he was getting or was unhappy with the shipping time or communication.
I will repeat myself…Know your prices…There are sellers that jack up their prices above MSRP or think they have something rare and hard to find when in all truth its very common.
Also $65.00 BB engines can be had from other dealers cheaper and can be found at train shows.
Again know your going used prices so you won’t get burnt.
Used locos are always a good deal if you buy one. For those common items 1,000+ copies extant or more, condition is going to be your worry. Sure! It is common, not rare, and with that the price is usually low. You need to get hot under the collar if you pay the price and get damaged or ill-described items. However, “Sold as is” means you have no leg to stand on…The seller was clear and adamant. I will not bid on an item with this well explained caveat.
However, rarer items and items that are long discontinued such that most are gone, destroyed or damaged can make what was a moderately common item, rare. These can have an entirely different bidding crowd such that they will receive zero bids as no one wants or needs the item with a high opening bid or some one person has wanted one of this item for years and just tuned in to the auction and has a lot of cash. He will own this item!!! It, effectively, at this moment, has no real market value as he will bid it to the roof against all comers. It had no value because there is not a real market for it, normally. A brass GP-9 may have a hundred interested folks huddled up to bid and many of these may have been sold in the last two years. This has a common market value. There can still be some whack job in the mix who has more money than brains or a lust that he must see it in his hands and no other. You will never know until the close.
In closing, the rarer items are the ones where you will see no bids at all, one winning bid at the starting price or some insane sum spent by a “must have” winner.
If you are bidding on normal, common stuff and expect a nice item to arrive if you win, be very careful and read the condition carefully and watch out for “sold as is”.
I have also bought the majority of my model railroad items on e-bay. When I purchaed items on e-bay if they were not “new” I checked the prices being paid for the item as used and will only pay a sibstansially reduced price for that item.
It the items were new I made sure I did not pay any more than what I could have bought the items for including shipping at some of the large model train discount stores.
I only had one instance of an item not being what it was represented as, it was an Intermountain EMD F unit in an A B setup, it had been out of production for some years and was considered hard to find. It was advertised as “hardley used”
It was true that there was only minor wheel wear but the pc board for the lights and been taken out and was missing. I lodged a complaint with E-Bay and the vendor responded that the light was a minor item and could be bought for less than a $1.00. E-Bay seemed to have not undertood that the PC Bpard that was missing was for both headlights, a mars light and the number boards and sided with the vendor and I did not get any type of reduction.
However, I was more than surprised to find out the when I contacted Intermountain to inquire ahout a replacement PC board they sent me one at no charge. That was the first Intermountain unit that I bought, but not the last, I have about two dozen AB EMD F unit sets now, most with sound.
So, to summarize, I do not find any pitfalls when buying used engines, provided one practices a due dilegence approach before bidding on any items.
Interesting thread. My two cents: -EBay is great for folks like me that like to fiddle with old and rare stuff -I always assess the risk and am ready to lick my wounds when things go bad, But: -the best deals are usually associated with some kind of risk, such as As is items -so, for those who are looking for zero risk market value items, I would suggest other avenues than EBay… Simon