The real last interurban?

At the risk of being called a heretic, I’m going to argue that the former Philadelphia & Western, now operating as SEPTA’s Norristown High Speed Line, is the Last Interurban in the United States. It has always run primarily passenger service, equipment does not meet AAR standard, and is electrically powered. The Brill Bullets were always considered interurban cars, and their successors are not that different in appearance and size. The Liberty Liners came from another interurban and some ex-CTA 6000 series cars also put in an appearance, not unlike CRT cars showing up on North Shore and CA&E.

I would have to say that you’re right about the SEPTA line having interurban characteristics, but I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the South Shore’s status. At least at the east end, it still looks and feels like an interurban, and the other Insull lines carried freight under wires.

I’d be more inclined to say that the South Shore is an interurban that has kept up with, and evolved with, the times.

(What would distinguish P&W from Metra Electric?)

The IC is a steam road electrification, not unlike the ex-PRR and RDG suburban lines out of Philadelphia or the ex-DL&W lines out of Hoboken and the equipment has always been built to steam road specs. Having grown up about 100 yards from South Shore’s main line, I could never notice a difference between South Shore’s and the paralleling steam roads’ passenger equipment except for the shorter length of the unrebuilt coaches. The Insull era cars were more like short steam road cars than interurban cars and even the steeple cabs were heavier than those on the other Insull lines. We won’t even discuss the Joes and R-2’s. South Shore’s transition from interurban to electric railroad started with the delivery of the first 25 Insull cars and was completed by 1958 when the last ex-NYC R-2’s were put in service.

Yes, South Shore qualifies along with the Norristown High Speed Line. But there are those who consider the DL&W’s P&D–today’s NJT Gladstone Br–as an interurban, too. Single track, automatic block, meets under daily traffic conditions, and electric, of course (two meets in each direction between Summit and Gladstone with hourly train service, more during rush hours). The former PRR, now NJT’s, Princeton Dinky is single track but has a two track terminal at the end of track. I think SEPTA has a couple of other wired lines with only two rails, too. Also to be nominated, MNRR’s New Canaan Line, single track from the New Haven days leaving the main just east of Stamford, CT station. And, even though with third rail rather than catenary, the LIRR has a lot of single track running especially on the Ronkonkoma line that smacks more of interurban than rapid transit or even regular railroad! And the suburban landscape on Staten Island sometimes gives the SIRR’s half hourly service each way a touch of interurbanism!

Okay, granted, the East Troy Trolley Museum located in southeastern Wisconsin earns the bulk of its revenue from a tourist operation, but I’m reasonably sure they still have a few interline freight tariffs on file.

How would East Troy and the Iowa Traction Railroad (600-volts d.c. under trolley wire between Mason City and Clear Lake, Iowa) fit into this discussion?

It has to be a scheduled passenger hauling common carrier or transit line and not a tourist line…

The issue of “what is an interurban” has been discussed in other threads. Basically, the issue is whether you look at the type of equipment the railroad is operating (and possibly the physical characteristics of the railroad) or look at the nature of the company’s business.

The only authoritative determination of “what is an interurban” that I’m aware was by the Interstate Commerce Commission. The ICC needed to decide “what is an interurban” because “interurbans” weren’t subject to various provisions of the Interstate Commerce Act, such as the provisions applicable to abandonments and line extensions. Similarly, the ICC needed to decide whether a property qualified for the “interurban railroad” exclusion to the Railway Labor Act.

The ICC consistently applied a test based on the nature of the company’s business, not the type of equipment the railroad operated or the physical characteristics of the company’s plant. Based on this approach, the ICC treated railroads like the North Shore, the South Shore and the Illinois Terminal as electrified general system railroads, not interurbans, since the 1930’s, based primarily on their fairly extensive interchange of conventional freight with general system railroads and also their parti

The common bond we’ve all used here has been that each is an electic operation…and I suppose in the general sense we think “interurban” as being an extension of electric trolley lines in their seminal period. But, how about the NJT River Line? Camden to Trenton, single and double track, city street running and private right of way, sometimes shared with freight. Multiple unit cars, rapid transit fare system, one man operation. But diesel powered!?

I’ll give henry6 credit for thinking outside the box. The NJT River Line and the San Diego Sprinter both have most of the characteristics of an interurban operation except for the wires.

How would one classify the IC electric operations in Chicago.They did operate out of Randolph Street station while IC operated their passenger trains out of Central. No regular IC train could carry passengers either to 63rd street or Homewood from Central, but passengers could board IC trains at both stations for places like Memphis or New Orleans. The IC electric trains were completly separate from the the other IC trains. They even operated on separate trackage. Did IC even have a freight service on its electric trackage? I didn’t see any in my Official Guide.

Yep - it sure does. A non-exhaustive and perhaps incomplete - and maybe a little incorrect - list off the top of my head would include the Doylestown Branch of the R-5 line from Lansdale to the terminus at the same; the R-2 Warminster/ Hatboro line from east of Roslyn or thereabouts to the terminus; and the R-3 Media-Elwyn line, at least the out-of-service portion that goes past Wawa, Glen Mills, and Cheyney. The ones I’m not too sure about are the the R-6 Bala Cynwyd line; the R-7 Chestnut Hill East and R-8 Chestnut Hill West lines; and the R-8 Fox Chase line. See the SEPTA map at - http://www.septa.org/maps/system/index.html

But they’re all conversions from former non-electrified ‘steam road’ operations, and most had - and some still do have - freight service. So I’d agree with the original premise that the Norristown High Speed Line is the last real interurban. And as anyone who has done it when things are humming knows, it’s a quick and fun ride - perhaps the most ‘interesting’ and ‘dynamic’ on rails outside of an amusement park.

  • Paul North.

That’s why Paul, and all you others out there like Paul and me, should come on one of my Ridewithmehenry trips in the NY/Phila Metro areas. Ride the old, the new, the mundane, the historical, the unique, long, short, the rural, the urban, the city, the mainlines, the branches, 6 and 8 tracks wide or just a single pair of rails through the woods, ATC, PTC, track warrents and train orders!. Its all fun riding.

2 comments about P&W. 1 It was built to steam railroad standards in its day. 2 no grade crossings or street trackage.

Also how would one classify the St Louis area light rail by these standards. While I’ll admit it is a transit operation it does have some street running(I think), travels thru 2 states(Mo & Il) .

Rgds IGN

Anyone happen to know if any interurbans are still running in Cuba?

You raise an important point about this and so many other discussions on these pages: Definition of topic. Here we are throwing the term interurban around and by discussion defining it so many different ways. I believe the strictist and oldest definition was: electric, street running in towns and cities, private right of way between towns and cities. But we have stretched it here by comparing the likes of the DL&W, PRR, RDG, (thus NJT and SEPTA). LIRR, NH, and IC electric operations (some by branchs only) to an interurban like the South Shore, etc. So, is the IC operation an interurban? Probably on the farthest fringes because of lack of single track operation and street running. The others had no street running but their private single track ROW’s move them closer to the middle of the definition. That still leaves the diesel operations like San Diego and NJT’s River Line a question as they do the street running, they do the private right of way, they do the single track, but are not electric. Does anyone want to tackle the definition?

" That still leaves the diesel operations like San Diego and NJT’s River Line a question as they do the street running, they do the private right of way, they do the single track, but are not electric."

What about the “Dan Patch” lines in Mn? As I recall they were never electrified but were considered “Interurban” by ICC. I think it eventually morphed into a part of Minneapolis, Northfield & Southern.

Personally I think of the P&W as more of a rapid transit line, as it is mostly double track, has no street running. and has no grade crossings. In addition it was originally built to steam road standards.

William Middleton did classify the P&W as an interurban for his book, The Interurban Era, though. In addition the Media Line of the Red Arrow as well.

If you want to class P&W as interurban, how would you class the Cleveland area lines? Both Shaker Heights & the airport line(forgot the name) .

Rgds IGN

Since the IC electric operation was simply part of the larger IC railroad (not even a separate company, like PE), it’s not an “interurban” because IC is not an interurban. It’s an electrified piece of a general system railroad.

http://www.tramz.com/cu/hy/hy.html

Try this. I think.

Rgds IGN

I believe that George W Hilton also qualified P&W as an interurban for his book. The current Cleveland lines are pretty straightforward: The Red Line (Airport-Windermere) is rapid transit, the Blue/Green line (Shaker Heights) is light rail.

There was also some freight service on IC’s suburban branches, a few coal yards on the South Chicago branch and Chicago West Pullman & Southern had trackage rights on the Blue Island branch to serve the International Harvester plant at 121st and Halsted.

Dan Patch line was electric in its earlier years…Cleveland lines are rapid transit. And that brings up another distiction…interurbans usually run one, maybe two, but rarely more than two, car trains. Rapid transit and railroad would probably be minimum two car but more normally four or more car trains.