At the risk of being labeled “head sycophant,” I just thought I would let the rest of you know that the symposium was great and I wish I could have met more of you there. Mark’s lecture and slide show really expanded my knowledge–most interestingly with regard to short line railways and the likelihood of the continued existence of the routes they operate.
Gabe
What in particular was covered?
What did you learn from Mark on short lines?
LC
I initially didn’t give a thorough description of the symposium out of the fear that my relatively limited rail knowledge would preclude me from catching some of the nuisances that make up Mark’s position and unintentionally misrepresent Mark’s position. But, it was a quality symposium and the forum deserves at least my attempt. So, here are the top 10 things I found most interesting at the symposium:
(1) The Rock Island’s old Memphis line (Sorry I don’t know both ends of the line or the official name of the line) is still intact but getting it to the point it could run trains over it would be very difficult. However, BNSF REALLY wishes it had bought and maintained that line when it had the opportunity and they would not have to sink so much money into it.
I found this particularly interesting, because SF bought the TPW in the 80s when they had a chance to get the Rock Island’s Memphis line. I wish I had enough money (or confident investors) to start a short line over the old Rock Island Memphis line. It sounds as though BNSF would be interested in buying it if you were able to bring it to a certain point of development.
(2) Mark’s slides were nothing short of outstanding. They focused primarily on the Rio Grande (which I have always found a very photogenic railway). The night picture of a UP train going over the Salt Lake at night (giving the impression that it was rolling on water due to the subsidence of the ballast) was absolutely breathtaking.
(3) Mark discussed a lot of things about Rio Grande’s branch lines (sorry hard to sum this up).
(4) One of the major thesis of Mark’s presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy–if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.
(5) The other half of Mark’s major thesis is that we have to determine what we want our rail system to b
I was really hoping to be there, particularly less than an hour from home, but other things were calling for my attention.
I just dont see how short lines can continue to survive, based on little or no investment in the property. The entire cycle of the line seems to be (and I use my hometown line as an example) that at one time the line is fairly well maintained, but with old rail and as the line falls more and more into disrepair, the service suffers, which is a never ending cycle. Traffic begins to dry up, meaning less money for on going maintennace, etc. Finally the railroad sells it to a short line…at which time the trains bounce along at 10mph till it is time to pull up the tracks. Sad.
Unless there is a strategic reason for lines, we will find more and more of this occuring.
I am amazed the average age of Trains subscribers is 70. Ouch.
ed
Ed,
I was thinking of the exact same line while Mark was making this point. I almost managed to smile as I pictured a pair of Illinois Central Geeps proudly pulling a freight through Olney and other small towns on its way to Newton.
I wi***his were not the way of things.
Gabe
Gabe,
Thanks for the summary. Wish I could have been there.
As for point #8, what is the standard error on that average? I can’t imagine that it’s a normal distribution. Perhaps Mr. Hemphill will weigh in…
Michael
It is always, of course, possible that I misunderstood something, but Mr. Hemphill was the person to whom I attribute this information.
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
I initially didn’t give a thorough description of the symposium out of the fear that my relatively limited rail knowledge would preclude me from catching some of the nuisances that make up Mark’s position and unintentionally misrepresent Mark’s position. But, it was a quality symposium and the forum deserves at least my attempt. So, here are the top 10 things I found most interesting at the symposium:
(1) The Rock Island’s old Memphis line (Sorry I don’t know both ends of the line or the official name of the line) is still intact but getting it to the point it could run trains over it would be very difficult. However, BNSF REALLY wishes it had bought and maintained that line when it had the opportunity and they would not have to sink so much money into it.
I found this particularly interesting, because SF bought the TPW in the 80s when they had a chance to get the Rock Island’s Memphis line. I wish I had enough money (or confident investors) to start a short line over the old Rock Island Memphis line. It sounds as though BNSF would be interested in buying it if you were able to bring it to a certain point of development.
(2) Mark’s slides were nothing short of outstanding. They focused primarily on the Rio Grande (which I have always found a very photogenic railway). The night picture of a UP train going over the Salt Lake at night (giving the impression that it was rolling on water due to the subsidence of the ballast) was absolutely breathtaking.
(3) Mark discussed a lot of things about Rio Grande’s branch lines (sorry hard to sum this up).
(4) One of the major thesis of Mark’s presentation was that we (railroaders and the nation) are sitting on a legacy–if no railroads existed today, we could not afford to just build them. As this legacy ages and eventually has to be replaced there are going to be some major problems.
(5) The other half of Mark’s major thesis is
Thanks for the clarification. My limited knowledge coupled with the fact that I am posting this information while doing other stuff causes some errors.
Gabe
Still working on that grade crossing suit, huh? [;)]
I sure hope not. If my living depended on collecting money from railroad crossing incidents would leave me starved in about a week. It is very difficult to get a grade crossing suit verdict.
Gabe
Can you folks expand a little on these new sidings?
What’s the new idea/way of doing it?
It is so hard to describe in words, but I will try.
Old siding on double track main:
____/______
X______________________________X
New siding on double track main:
_______/____________
X__________________________X
This way–by allowing the siding to go beyond the crossover switch, they can work on any one siding while keeping both mains clear. I think Mark said there was another maintenance advantage, but it escapes me at the moment.
Gabe
Sorry, the posting distorted my representation–try to picture the top line even with the crossover switch.
Gabe
Gabe:
Yeah, I was thinking of those black geeps running up the Dundas grade with a long line of boxcars, while I was on my bike counting the cars. So, long ago.
There is a pretty good example of what can be done here in Northern Indiana. I am talking about the Ft Wayne - Chicago PRR mainline. When I moved up here, it was pretty busy with probably 25-30 Conrail trains per day. By 1982 or so, all those freights were moved over to the the NYC main.
To make a long story short, NS bought the line to allieviate congestion, it went to CSX as part of the Conrail settlement, and then went to Chicago Ft. Wayne and Eastern.
When NS purchased it, the track was upgraded to 40mph (no signals). There is still jointed rail. But the important thing is…THERE IS STILL RAIL in place.
Now, I maintain that someday this line may be an important railroad again. And I look at the shortline operators and wonder…is it possible that their lines could one day help with the coming infrastructure issue? Probably not, but they could piece lines together that could be come attractive.
Ditto the former Rock Island mainline from Chicago to Omaha. It is still in place. How valuable might that property be in 15 years as UP has to compete with BNSF’s 2 mainlines across the midwest?
TPW? The former IC Omaha line?
There are many lines still left. Some are in shortline or regional’s hands, no doubt waiting till the life support machine turns off. I dont know the answer to keeping those lines open in the near future, but believe it is something worth exploring, past the next quarter’s shareholder’s report.
ed
Ed-
Short lines operate in the way they do because that is what is required to make money. Short lines spun off from Class 1s almost always have traffic levels that are too low to support maintenance of the line as an ongoing concern. This requires the short line operator to grow the traffic to survive and often means that, at least initially, maintenance money (and all other funding) is very tight. Also, as the short line rarely receives the line in high quality condition.
On the other hand, short lines rarely need high speed track. Ten miles per hour is more than adequate to get the train from one end of the line to the other (and in some cases back to interchange) within the hours of service. As Class1s rarely service interchanges more than daily such a hurry would have no purpose.
The preservation of the line in operating condition, even at ten miles per hour preserves much of the operating assets including rail, crossties, OTM grade and subgrade and most importantly the le
No problem. That’s why I hang around. Wish I could have been there myself. Might have made a few people uncomfortable…lol…of course I might have had them rolling…
LC
So by your calculations, you are 28.913672 years of age (at least at the time of this posting)! Do you have an atomic clock computer chip on your drivers liscense?
On point #4 - Did he make any comparisons and contrasts between constructing highways and railroads today? The “legacy” as is stated was constructed at a time when no other viable alternatives existed, and any region that wanted economic growth just had to have a railroad or go belly up. Today, most economic desires related to transportation revolve around the need to be located near an interstate. Yet, with the growth in world trade the need for transporation of bulk commodities (or commodities in bulk) is the perfect storm for a revival of rail infrastructure additions. The real question is if the old model of the sole proprietary franchise is obsolete for the needs of the future.
On point #5 - Why do we have to have one or the other when we can have both?
Rail infrastructure - utilities
Train operations - profit making ventures
Mark, from what you know about economics, if the private car owner, the trucker, really had to pay the full cost of his/transportation to society in general (police traffic control, the traffic courts, traffic signals and maintenance, land removed from the tax rolls), could railroads earn a decent return on their capital, possibly even in the non-commuting long distance passenger business as well as car-load frieght and LCL?
If you have not seen the Pipes article in the American Legion Magazine, please read it. The tell me, doesn’t the USA need a national public transportation system based on a robust well-maintained and operated Amtrak supplimented by all the necessary bus feeders so every town with a P. O. has at least a daily connection to the national system, plus a robust freight network with the subsidization necessary so at least what we have is kept?
The USA sold scrap iron from the 9th Avenue elevated to Japan just before Pearl Harbor. The Bush energy and transportation program looks to me like continuing to sell the steel after Pear Harbor. (With the FBI accusing Billy Mitchell of dual loyalties for flying for Chiang Kei Chek!)