Dave (West Coast),
While your operation sounds like it would be fun to run, I am still intrigued by classification yards. I understand that they can be costly–I get the heebee jeebees just thinking about it. I don’t plan to use it as a storage yard. I expect it to be dynamic and if I leave a car or three out, it will be used tomorrow.
I welcome other points of view.
Exactly! Classification yards are dynamic and not generally for storage. Remember the staging yards represent the rest of the world where trains come from and go to.
There should be some storage tracks near the classification yard for snow plows, big hooks and other M.O.W. equipment. There also should be a R.I.P. track that is easy to place bad ordered cars and depending on era being modeled, an icing track, caboose track and a track to rest live stock. Maybe a warehouse near by.
Those are some pretty good commandments.
Trainboy
By the way, what is the best method for setting out a diagram for yard plans on this site? To date (for this Neanderthal), there seems to be lack of continuity. This is by no means a critique. I have trouble with the spelling or understanding the acronyms commonly used. Perhaps a crash course on “Coffee Shop” dialogue is in order?
Yards, I suppose, are one of those things that people will just disagree on, like diesel vs. steam or HO vs. N. I can’t imagine a layout without a yard, because yards and industrial spurs are what draws my attention–that’s where all the action happens! Half of my layout is yard, and half is industrial spur–the mainline itself is an afterthought, largely used as a place to execute switching moves. There is no worry about blocking through trains, because there aren’t any–following my prototype’s operating procedures, all through trains are broken down upon arrival at the yard, carried through the mainline to the other end if necessary. Besides, I don’t have a loop.
That’s part of the fun of model railroading, though–you can model the parts you like the most, and de-emphasize the rest.
The basic things you need for a classification yard are someplace to put the inbound cars before they are classified, someplace to put the cars while they are being classified and then someplace to put the cars to go outbound.
There is no requirement to have dedicated arrival or departure tracks, although it can help the operation.
There is no requirement to have a switching lead, although it will help the switcher operate independent of the trains on the mainline.
There is no requirement to have a roundhouse, engine or caboose servicing facility, but you do have to figure out where the road engines and caboose will park while the train is being switched and a place for the switch engine to park while the road trains arrive or depart.
In most cases the wrecker tracks, etc. end up being purely display tracks. An icing track, cleaning track, scale track or RIP track can be a functional “industry”.
If you want to practice switching, use a deck of cards to simulate it. On a large piece of paper draw 5 lines. On the bottom line deal a dozen or so cards. Then move the cards like railcars and “switch” them by suit.
Dave H.
So, between Jetrock, dehusman’s and “The Ten Commandments…” which is right? It can’t be both ways! Are the “Ten Commandments” only for prototypical operations and all other postings (refuting the ‘Commandments’) simply “playing by their own rules?” I make no pretense at prototypical yard configuration. First of all, I simply don’t have enough area to be “prototypical” and I’ll wager the majority of the readers don’t either. However, I cannot claim that my choices are “prototypical” anymore than I can claim that it doesn’t matter if the mainline is blocked by switching operations. May we all admit to being sinners [Ten Commandments] and enjoy our reckless abandon in Model Railroad Pugaqtory together. lol
I actually don’t see anything that I’ve said that significantly conflicts with the “10 commandments”. Actually you’ll find most of what I’ve said in the “10 commandments” if you read them.
My comments in no way were meant to refute them. My comments were made to point out that if you don’t have room for some of the things that are typically included in a classification yard, you can have a class yard without them. It may not have the capacity, it may not have the flexibility of a yard that does have all the elements, it it can still work in its limitations. It just depends on what you are trying to do.
Not all prototype yards have all the elements suggested either. But the smaller ones on real railroads aren’t division point, high production yards either.
Dave H.
Good point Ted. As it has been said, “There is a prototype for everything in railroading”. Yard operations and its layout would depend on the size of the operation. A class 1railroad would not want to tie up the main line for anything.
Then there are the small short lines that may not operate more than a few trains a day over their whole system. For example, the entire Lake Shore & Ishpeming railroad in the upper peninsula of Michigan is classified as a yard.
The era modeled makes a difference too. In the early days, especially in the west, the main line is also the team track.
The Ten Commandments article was intended to help plan for an operating layout. It does state there are exceptions to the rules as practiced by the railroads.
So fear not the wrath of God if you switch cars on the main. It’s prototypical!
I’m really new at this so please bear with me if I step on myself in talking about things I don’t understand.
But it seems to me that a layout’s operational capacity is limited by the functionality of the yard.
If you are running one train and you are the only person ever operating, then who cares if you foul the main. When you start adding operators and trains, then then fouling the main becomes more of an issue.
If you want your layout to be handle 6-8 operators or more and have multiple running trains, not only do you need to keep the main clear, you need to keep the lead clear and clear the A/D tracks for incoming trains to have a place to go, or you’ve fouled the main again.
So the issue debated is: what level of operation do you see your layout handling, and does your yard handle that level of operation. All of you can be right in context.
But by limiting the functionality of your yard, yo may be limiting your ability to expand, either in size or operational capacity, as well.
I think you’ve got a grip on it Chip! You have to consider what the end use of the layout will be in order to have satisfying operations.
Yes, the size and purpose of any Pike will ultimately determine the priorities of any given space limitations. There was no intentional criticism for “breaking the rules.” Jetrock mentioned: “…the mainline is an afterthought, largely used to execute switching moves.” And dehusman added among the list of "no requirements: “no requirement to have a switching lead, although it will help the switcher operate independent of the trains on the mainline.” Both statements apply to the “priorities” of their individual layouts…fine. The “Ten Commandments” are based on the general practice of prototype railroads where mainlines are in continuous use for “through” freight and/or passenger service. Given the above, when the “mainline” is relegated to any other “continupus” use (yard lead, staging, A/D area, et al.), it begs the question: Is it really a mainline? Well, let us not digress to “splitting hairs.” As you might have noticed (or not), my original “reply” was as much in jest as anything else, e.g. “…Model Railroad Purgatory…” Obviously, I am guilty of postulating far too much “Fire and Brimstone” regarding “The Ten Commandments.” I shall assume the “hair cloth and ashes”…until next my “Topic Reply.” Go in peace, amen.
Jetrock and the Ten Commandments.
An association I hadn’t made before…
Jetrock, If you’re listening, I decided to build an N scale switching layout as an experiment to help determine where my operational preferences lie. I’ll post the layout for dissection when I get it drawn up.
Why not? Maybe not on the same layout–but dehusman and I have different layouts. Those ten commandments are handy advice, and help me make my yard and layout better than it would be otherwise, but sometimes I have chosen to leave in problems or violations of “the rules” where I am seeking to reflect the prototype I am modeling, which sometimes diverged from traditional railroad practice.
My layout is intended for single-operator use–me. Once I have it fully completed, I might figure out a way to be able to run two trains at once–one from the north end, one from the south end–and the complications of getting one train around another, via the long passing track in the middle, will be of primary importance. If a northbound train gets blocked by the southbound train working in the yard, it is because the northbound train is waaay ahead of schedule! For now, I don’t have any plans to add DCC or cab control–I use power-routing turnouts to control which engine I am using, and that’s the extent of my wiring.
SpaceMouse: I would admonish you against the hazards of working in two different scales! If you want to build a small switching layout, it would be easy and cheap to make one using the HO components you already have. You’ll save money, and avoid the inevitable loss of interest in your previous scale that comes with even a temporary experiment in a new scale.
With this in mind,
http://www.qtm.net/~dinwitty/rr/ChiTown.jpg
instead of inforum linking the image, I made it separate, I thought I would post this here
as an example of planning.
The very lower area is a NKP/C&O freight transfer yard terminal, it is NOT a standard railroad yard, this is a point of origination/destination, and it will have
loading platforms galore, about 120 car capacity, train rolls in about 20 cars max,
drops them off and runs around them and can spot them into the various leads or work the cars over to make another train.
There is no turntable here, I thought to myself no turntables!, but it looks like I made need one, but the loco will have to run light all the way to the regular yard and turn, then come back.
Next set of tracks is the South Shore and Illinois Central passenger terminals,
2 car lengths max. I didnt think I could work this much into my layout design, but here it is!
I even have the Kensington junction.
Upper track is the CTA loop, North Shore trains to run here and go to Milwaukee.
I am cram and jamming in the action!
Skeptics…it will work, believe me…
its all shelf module design.
When I design yards I typically end up with a yard that complies with most (if not all) of the 10 commandments. I usually start with the same plan because I have found it effective. One thing I don’t particularly care for in the designs shown in the 10 commandments is that there is no way for a train to depart straight out of the the class tracks. EVERY train has to depart out of the A/D tracks. That can be constraining, especially in a low volume layout.
A critical factor is how much real estate do you want to dedicate to the yard. If you have 10 ft in HO, you can design one yard, if you have 15 feet you can add crossovers at the throat and make the same yard very flexible.
Another consideration is how many double ended tracks you want to include. A double ended yard ends up about 33%-50% longer than a single ended yard. If you aren’t going to staff 2 switch engine all the time then a fully double ended yard isn’t required.
A critical factor is how long it takes you to switch a track. Set up switches and flex track so you have a “yard” with 5 or 6 “class” tracks and a lead with a piece of flex track or two for each yard track. Then put a dozen or so cars on the lead. make a list of them in order and assign them a track number. Its not critical which goes where. Time how long it takes you switching at reasonable speed to switch the cars. Then how long it takes to coule the tracks back up into one cut (simulating building an outbound train.). Do that 3 or 4 times and that will give you a sense of how long it takes to switch a car or train. That will give you an idea how many cars or trains you can handle in your yard. A classic failure is to pound too many cars into a yard too quick.
Another concept to consider is “blocks”, that is groups of cars that will be handled together for the next leg of their journey. For example all the cars going to the next switching yard, a group of cars for a large interchange, a group of cars for one large indus
While I have to say that I agree about the flexibility of various yard elements, I would also say that I have had a couple of poorly designed yards on previous layouts and that there is a threshold of yard design which one shouldn’t sink below. Exactly where that line is appears to be fluid, but when the yard is poorly designed, it is no fun.
By contrast, I just finished the yard on my new layout that I designed using most of the concepts in the Ten Commandments and it works great. It is possible to (even in its barely finished state) to spend hours making and breaking trains…
Chip’s idea about calculating operations and usage is right on. I hope as my layout progresses I don’t find too many faults with my original operation/use calculations regarding my yard…
I’m sure that just being aware of basic yard operation and reading/having this discussion will help most of us avoid the major pitfalls…