There's a war a bruin-And there shouldn't be one! (DC vs DCC)

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

I’ve noticed a lot of “tension” lately between DCC modelers and DC modelers. And tension is a wee bit of an understatement. I’ve seen it drawn down and out to downright yelling matches in real life. It not a pretty sight.

First off I think it’s important to remember we are ALL in the same boat. We are all modelers. We all love trains. What we are disagreeing upon is the best way to setup and run a layout.

I can see the persistence of hardcore DC’s. “My layout has run fine for years. I’m not going to switch. All this DCC is hooey balooey and not needed.” I can understand their reluctance. A lot of them have spent a lot of time, money, and effort into their masterfully built DC layouts. And many are at such an advanced age, they don’t want to deal with the cost and initial complexities of DCC. This is all greatly understandable.

But then there’s the flipside. A lot of new people entering the hobby are buying DCC ready and equipped engines. And DCC offers a lot of benefits. It m

2

Agreed.

Also, I have noticed DCC wooing back people who have left the hobby in the past. It offers and delivers what made them leave the hobby…whatever that may be.

David B

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People leave a hobby because they are frustrated by it. When something comes along to either relieve or eliminate the frustration they might just come back.

Sure DC is easy (or so some folks say) but divinding your track into train length blocks and needing set the toggles to get your train around the layout gets old very fast. DCC eliminates that and allows you to run one particular locomotive or consist of locomotives while other run different ones so much easier at least in my opinion. However if you want to run DC only far be it from me to criticize your choice.

Irv

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OK, I agree as well, and in the thread that started all this, I even said for a layout with different goals from the ONE I am building, I would likely choose DCC.

I will take advice from David and avoid comparisons as much as possible. Although when questions are asked in a comparison manner, what’s one to do?

So, let me say this to Irv and a few others who have certain preconceptions or misconceptions about DC based on what they have seen or done in the past.

What would you say if said my DC layout has:

Wireless radio throttles with only five large easy to use buttons.

Momentum, constant lighting, very smooth control and slow speed.

NO block toggles or rotary switches and only about 1/4 of the control switches (lighted push buttons actually) of any kind from what you would expect with DC.

AND those control switches are always right where you want/need them as you walk around with your train. Yet they are also duplicated on that central panel if you desire.

Turnout route control that is one touch route selective for even complex yards or interlockings and lights up to show you the complete route selected.

AND, even though it is DC Cab control, it has built in protection against colisions or overrunning your section (block).

And, that by simply installing what has been discribed so far, you were half way to a signal system or CTC system or both.

That with the simple addition at this point of detectors, signals and a little wire, you would have very nice signal system.

Well its been done, and most of it is not new. But this version/combination of these features might well be and I think it should be shared with those who might be interested.

AND

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We need Obvious Man here. It is all male generated and has been since the beginning of time.

Of course, we geezers have a way of keeping it going. [:)]

Lets get back to model railroading.

Rich

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You’d think so. :slight_smile: One of the guys at my club said the other day he actually witnessed a couple guys manage to have a head-on collision several years ago on a DC layout. They were meeting at a siding, one overran the siding switch and they met right at the block boundary. :slight_smile:

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That’s funny - but my system uses automatic buffer zones, that require no extra wiring, making even that very difficult to do. By not using common rail, having seperate power supplies for each cab and staggering rail gaps, two sections (the word block is really a signal term) must be on the same cab or the section between the gaps is effectively dead to either train. No crashes, no “who’s got my train”.

And the only thing extra that cost was planning!

Sheldon

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Sheldon,

It sounds like you have a decent system for existing DC layouts. But can your system do this:

  1. Pull units F-7A / B (BLI) 1514, 1518 out of the engine shop

  2. Move said units up to a sanding tower and refueling station

  3. Pull another F-7A (Hobbytown), 1524 out of yard, and lash that up to 1514/1518. (You have a big load that day to haul over the mountain) This will be “extra 524” for the day.

  4. Pull Train # 9524 into the service yard on the adjoining track

  5. Move out of the service facility now you are loaded up at the same speed for a given throttle setting

  6. Pull it into a yard to be loaded up. Have a switcher load and unload various tracks and pull up close to your A-B-A Extra 524.

  7. Now pull the load onto the main and have the throttle semi regulated so the different motors in the different engines play well together (ie: one isn’t dragging the other two)

  8. You are now crossing a grade. Have your ditch lights come on as you cross the gate crossing. Have them turn off automatically as you pass the crossing

  9. Have your engine arrive as it’s destination point and semi-breakdown the train. Have an industry switcher get near your train and remove or add cars. Since yard switchers move slowly, have them move at a consistant crawl without stalling due to voltage variations in the track.

  10. Is PWM DC power packs compatible with sound locos or DCC equipped locos like the Bachmann GP30?

You will need power routing turnouts and blocks. There is just no two ways about it. This means more wiring and headcahes. And you can’t speed match DC locos. Even my 3 Athearn Ge

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“There’s a war a bruin” …there’s a war about bears??

Stephen Colbert must be behind it.

I sense trouble a-brewin’.

[swg]

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I said it in a previous post that has been deleted. DCC is a fabulous invention.

But it is not for everyone. I have a life time roster of HO locomotves. Since I don’t need any of the wonderful features that DCC has to offer, I also don’t need to spend the humongous money to put decoders in them. It is never going to happen. I got news for you guys it ain’t just $15.00 an engine. Add in the sound and the installation cost and it is way too expensive.

This is not a war. The problem comes from those who answer every question that DCC[8D] is the only way to solve the problem. The inference is that DC operators are either stupid or uniformed. I for one prefer to invest my available resources in the acquisition of the additional motive power and rolling stock that I need to complete my roster of New Haven equipment.

I have recently acquired two NH I-5 Shoreliners. They are DC/DCC units. I have also purchased the Quantum Engineer to operate them. As soon as I get my test oval constructed I will be able to evaluate them as far as control and sound characterisitics.

Incidently, since my first HO layout in 1948 I have operated ABBA FT and AA PA consists with no problems whatever, so DCC is definitely is not a must to accomplish that.

To be honest with you DCC zealots, I have been reading this forum since it was established. It makes DCC look like a nightmare to me. Gee, I just have to put a train on the track and it runs. [8D]

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Thanks for not being sour with us DCC’ers Rusty. If DC works for you, then I’m all for it.

BTW: Love the hat. :smiley:

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Actually, the way my yard/engine terminal is layed out, I can come pretty close to all that without doing much more than postioning the turnouts and pushing a button or two.

Most dual mode decoders, sound or not, run well on the Aristo PWC, admittedly the inexpsensive ones in Bachmann regular line do not like it much. But my BLI stuff runs fine.

As for ditch lights, or lighting rules, I’m just not into it.

Let me know when they defiy physics and get a 100Hz tone from two one inch speakers. While onboard sound is great in the larger scales, I have no use for it in HO. Prototypical is in your head at this point. To me those things sound like static.

I’m not blowing off DCC, its a great system, if the stuff you listed is on your want list. Not everybody’s idea of model trains is this intimate experiance of being the Locomotive Engineer. DCC is really good at that, If thats what you want than DCC is what you need.

Some of us are more into building the models and see running the train as more of a rail fan experiance than a “crew” experiance, or we want both.

I use Atlas turnouts and my power routing is all done with a few relays. They are cheap on e-bay ($1 ea)or just a little more wholesale ($3 ea).

Where is your signal system? Mine is built right in, and my CTC dispatcher sets my routes and my trains roll along.

Sheldon

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Also, I model 1954, what’s a ditch light?

And locos run just as good on the TE and on any decoder.

Sheldon

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Well that depends on if you just want to light signal heads, or have the train stop auto stop if it runs a red as well.

You can use the same analog stuff you are using. Or you can use DCC feedback systems. It all depends on how much you want to do with it. If you want to go “whole hog” you can set up a simple block occupancy circuit that automatically “all trains stop” signal to any train that runs a red signal. And the trains will prototypically stop in a slow fashion, and not grind to a halt (which can cause derailments)

There’s no reason you can’t have the same CTC dispatcher for routes as your DC system. Switch machines do NOT have to be tied to DCC. So the cost is the same.

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My trains stop automaticly if an operator runs a red and tries to enter a signal block he is not asigned. And, it does not effect the train or throttle in the other block. And this feature is truely free - and I have already explained how it works three or four times on this forum.

Search for the post on common rail and read my comments.

Sheldon

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And you can do the same thing with Digitax DCC, You need a small transistor circuit, and dual pole a/b relays for each red light section. You also need 1 detection board and 1 additional booster. This additional booster and detection board will handle all the blocks. And you get prototypical stopping! No grinding to a halt.

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Very true - and a great race car builder I knew years ago said “speed costs money, how fast do you want to go”.

I’m going fast enough thank you.

Sheldon

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Thankfully, Big Rusty, DCC isn’t as nightmarish as it may be perceived. I’ve had DCC-equipped sound locomotives - like my Trix 2-8-2 Mike - that have run beautifully right out of the box on address 03.

Although I prefer DCC, I don’t look down on DC or DC users. As in your case, sticking with DC is a wise move. I will agree that the “zealots” in either camp can get to be a little much sometimes. [xx(]

I think in these kinds of situations, we should heed the words of the great Canadian philosopher, Red Green:

“Remember, I’m pullin’ for ya’. We’re all in this thing together.”

(Hmmmm…or was it, “Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati”?: “When all else fails, play dead.”)

Tom

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If your lead engine is 1524, that would be “Extra 1524, not Extra 524”. (I assume that’s just a typo [;)] ) And what’s “Train 9524” now?

Ditch lights stay on all the time, not just for crossings. Some engines/roads set up the ditch lights to flash when the horn was blown. Many are constant-on with none of that flashing.

On the other hand, older electronics books and magazines have lots of tricks using magnets and reed switches to activate horns etc. automatically when approaching crossings. So that can be done, with a little setup.

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I am interested in this discussion because it has great potential to reveal all the benefits of each way of doing things if we can keep a lid on it. As is the case in any debate on any subject, the more factual information each camp can establish, with good will on both sides leading to a nod, even if grudgingly [:-,], the result could be a highly informative and useful thread for those who know what they want to do and what they need from their layout. Their choice of operating method, or system, would then be made clear for them, and that would be a great achievement.

For me, the hobby wouldn’t be where it is now had it not been for legions of determined, gritty, and experienced hobbyists who had vision and found a way to work around the limitations that DC seemed to present to them *prima fascie (*at first glance). Every great discovery came on the heels of the efforts of others, but it often came from one person who “got it”, and not from the legions of naysayers. We should embrace new ways of doing things, even if they are troubling or seem to come from old methods or materials. And as is often the case, the melding of two ideas can often yield something far greater than each of them singly.

So, let’s keep talking…and listening.

-Crandell