When Amtrak instituted service on the “West Side” line, from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn Station, was any of the line electrified? Do the dual-mode GEs (Dash9-42DP???) run on Diesel within Penn Station? Are they capable of running on both under- and over-contact third rail?
I have only traveled the line once, in a “Sardine Can” (Amfleet) car and didn’t get a view of anything – the train was packed!. Worse was to come – riding backward on an Amfleet car to Philadelphia, and then riding the ‘cattle car’ to Chicago. My conductor was Al Sharpton’s brother, but not as cool! Live and learn!
Bill Hays – Shelby, MT wdh@mcn.net , to go back-channel and not bore everyone.
(1) The CTA Evanston line trolley wire originally went all the way to Howard Street. I’m not sure when it was cut back to South Blvd, but it would have been after the CTA electric freight service was discontinued in the early 70’s.
(2) CTA also had trolley wire over one track (the west track) on the embankment between Howard and Wilson, and then continuing down the incline north of Wilson to the interchange with the Milwaukee Road at Montrose. Both ‘L’ and North Shore trains operating over this track between Howard and Wilson had to use their poles (I’ve seen many pictures of NSL trains with their poles up on this segment), You can still see the cut off stubs of the trolley supports, which appear to have been metal “Bates” poles. I vaguely recall that there was some gauntlet track on this segment as well, but I don’t remember where it was (it could have been between the Granville interlocking and Wilson). The segment was probably converted to third rail soon after the freight operation was discontinued in the early 1970’s.
(3) The CA&E Cook County Branch was a passenger operation in its earlier days. It served the Mount Carmel cemetary, and cemetary traffic in the early part of the 20th century (both for the living and the dead) was big business.
3rd rail out of Penn Station for about 1000 feet, then diesel up the West Side. LIRR/PRR overrunning, I believe. Don’t know if they are capable of both under and over running or not. My guess is that they are because not too long ago, Amtrak detoured the Empire Service back into GCT for a short while.
I’m not an EE but I’ll try. Much of it depends on the voltage used. Third rail is generally used where the voltage is low (usually 600VDC) because a large conductor is needed to carry enough current to move MU cars on close headways. Remember that the freight locomotives that North Shore acquired from Oregon Electric had double trolley poles in order to draw enough current. Overhead wire is used with higher currents when clearances will allow it.
I am sure each had its own advantages and disadvantages according to applicaiton. But it seems a given that anyplace there would be a lot of pedistrian traffic overhead wire would be wise. And it does seem that the higher the voltage the more likely it be overhead rather than on the ground. Railroads on private rights of way tended to utilize the 3rd rail except where there was street running. Interurbans used overhead wire because they did a lot of street running and were often extensions of more localize trolley lines. After that, engineering explanations set in. I am sure each trolley, interurban, and rail line has its own stories, none of which necessarily coincides with another’s.
Tort lawyers/Plaintiff’s lawyers/Trial lawyers/Ambulance-chasers all agree that overhead catenary is better, with its very-high voltage AC current. Their clients can trespass on railroad property, climb on equipment, and get seriously injured by the “dangerous” conditions. I think the last case I heard about was near Princeton Junction, NJ. The railroad was found at fault, by a jury, because they presented an “attractive nuisance” and didn’t fence the property and post warning signs ever 50 feet, or some such…
Another possible run-through is at Southeast (formerly Brewster North) on the Harlem line. Metro-North runs four trips from Wassaic to Grand Central and five trips from Grand Central (on weekdays) without a change of cars in Southeast, and the timetable shows only one time at southeast for each of these trips. When we went up to Wassaic and back two years ago, I did not have an opportunity to examine the locomotive to see if it had third-rail shoes–but the cars we rode both north and south were the same set (we had to change at Southeast).
As to Amtrak’s operation out of Penn Station to Rensselaer, the engines are changed at Rensselaer, which is a division point, and is the first/last stop that is long enough for a change.
As others have said, it depends on the situation. Generally third rail is more expensive than overhead wire, be it catenary or plain contact (trolley) wire. It does make sense where clearances are tight, so will be commonly used where there is a lot of underground operation. Overhead is mandatory where there is unprotected right-of-way and/or street running.
The early electric railroads were limited to 600V DC and third rail was the only way to get significant power. Later developments with single phase AC and high voltage DC allowed for a higher power draw from overhead, with the highest practical voltage for third rail being 1200V (e.g. Central California Traction) with experiments at 2400V third rail being spectacularly unsuccessful (Michigan Railways). Because of the higher current capacity, third rail systems can run longer trains than low voltage catenary/trolley systems.
Yes, MNRR does have “run through” trains from Poughkeepsie hourly, and from Wassaic, Danbury, and Waterbury during Peak Periods but may be only one or two RT’s daily; otherwise change at Southeast, South Norwalk, and Bridgeport for connecting train.
I would opt for ‘under-running’ third rail. It has these advantages: 1). It is easier to shield from inadvertant contact, if you remember to lift your leg over it. 2). It is easier to insulate, yet gain access, if needed. 3.) It doesn’t foul as many “clearance plates”, as the overall profile is lower. Yes, some freight cars are restricted from running in third rail territory. 4.) It is more protected from the weather (snow, sleet) than the over-running, upon which ice could/does build up. 5.) It looks better, but that is a NYC opinion.
NYC had some flangers in the Electric Division territory. They had blowers that removed snow build-up from under the third rail, in addition to the normal flanger duties. Cool to watch!
As far as the original question goes, third rail maintenance doesn’t require the use of a “wire train”. Short segments can be isolated for work, without on-track equipment. Of course, overhead AC is cheaper to distribute than third rail DC.
I would like to hear more about the Wassaic service. What kind of locomotives are used from Brewster North/Southeast, westward? I assume they run into/out of GCT also. Are any FL-9s still running? What ever happened to the two FL-9s that were painted in the NYC “Lightning Stripe” scheme? They were way cool, methinks!!!
Anyhoo, I’d love to see restoration of the Harlem Division passenger service to Chatham, NY and on to Albany! The 8% New York State sales tax should easily be able to support the rebuild! What else do they have to spend it on? A Danbury-Brewster-Poughkeepsie shuttle would be neat. Connecticut could donate some of their sales tax revenue to this venture. A couple of RDCs would work, espically with bar service. Onward to Campbell Hall, and beyond. Even eastward to Waterbury and Hartford! Knock the “Yuppies” off the Poughkeepsie Bridge, keep the Hudson clean (no water bottles, diapers, and Labrador ‘Land Mines’ being kicked into the river) and connect with the M-NR ‘Port Jervis’ line, etc…
The line north (NYC RR west) of Wassaic is gone, a walking trail in some places, dissapeared in others. Very doubtful it will ever become a railroad again.
There’s a guy here called Dutchrailnut who lives in Brewster and is an engineer for MNRR and I hope he can jump in here and answer your questions better. FL9’s are gone, Genisis are in and I believe they are duel mode…GCT trains from Wassaic are up to 10 cars I think, the local turn is, I think, two.
You’ve got some neat ideas which just are not real enough for MNRR. And the lightning striped units are at the Danbury Museum.
why all the fuss. why not put a diesel locomotive on the end of a set of m-7 cars. penn station to babylon. drop off half the cars then continue east on diesel. only needed for rush hour thru trains.
Couople of further point on 3rd rail vs overhead. The first is speed - the fastest regular 3rd rail service I know of is 100mph, it’s double that for overhead, with a maximum over 350mph is speed.
The second is about voltage loss - low voltage 3rd rail will lose voltage over short distances, so needs substations every ten or so miles. 3rd rail, with much higher voltages needs many fewer substations. Less fixed plant leads to less cost, though against that the cost of actualy laying 3rd rail is usually much less than stringing up catenerary, as clearances need much less work for 3rd rail.
I don’t ever remember seeing springs on NYC or NYNH&H under-running third rail shoes. Maybe I never looked! I think the shoes ran with the horizontal geometry of the trucks. If anything, they might need a spring, or some flexibility, to allow them to ‘dip’ where third rail was a bit low. Spring-loading them upward would cause them to rise when there were gaps in the third rail, or it changed sides. At he next side-change, an upwardly-sprung shoe would foul the new pick-up rail and be lost! The New Haven’s shoes were held down, pneumatically, in third rail territory. I doubt if they were spring-loaded to go up. A momentary air-failure would have caused them to foul the next third rail and be clipped off. I’m really guessing here and hope for enlightenment. I don’t know nutthin’ about over-running third rail. Yar, there are ‘transition’ rails, on a gentle slope, on both systems to handle minor variations in the shoe height when changing sides or bridging gaps. Any Engineers, civil/mechanical/electrical, that is, from 466 Lexington Avenue still out there?
Actually I have never looked at the thrd rail shoe either over running or under running. However I have looked at the rails and at all ends of a section or 3rd rail they have a ramp rail. ie on an overrunning rail the rail slowly goes down about 4 inches until the shoe cannot contact the third rail. Opposite on an under running rail. That seems to indicate a spring or pneumatic (?) actuation to maintain contact.