After many years and reading posts on this and other forums I’m trying to solve the “brass” mystique. Now this is according to me: I really like brass locomotives for some reason, now the question is are they worth the money ??(even though they seem to be dropping in price) some of them are older, for example 1970 models, now you have older technology (40 years) maybe some deterioration, probably a major tune-up, but you may end up with a nice loco, ALSO, it would seem that a particular model made back then was a limited run and will never be made in the future, so in order to have one you must buy a brass loco as a new one is out of the question. Now a query, if an older brass model is available and the same model is out in plastic, this to me would be a problem, as they both have merits, I don’t know if I know enough about both brass and plastic to come up with a proper decision. Am I sort of right in my thinking?? or way off base, I need a little help here. The reason this question came up I saw for sale a Gem PRR s2 6-8-6, a great looking engine, I don’t think this is on the agenda of any plastic locomotive manufacturer in the future. Just as I get familiar with the basic shapes of a lot of steam engines, along comes a photo or a model of a strange looking engine, guess this is what makes trains so interesting.–any comments?
The yard limits are getting shorter on the brass, but they still represent the finest that the hobby has to offer in terms of details. It just seems that the lesser stuff is so much better recently, and seems to run really well. Also, their details are creeping up on brass all the time. Even now, one could argue, it is hardly worth paying three times what a BLI DCC loco costs to get what you could acquire from detail suppliers or make yourself and add to the loco for another $40!!
Besides, I think a properly weighted plastic loco will sustain as much hard-to-fix damage as would a brass loco if both fell the same way. But, unless you could fix it yourself, the former will cost a lot more.
Am I wrong…dunno. However, I hope to have a Key Imports PRR J1 within a few years, whenever Key gets around to them.
-Crandell
I have three brass steamers. They are much nicer looking than anything I have seen except possibly the new Big Boy, but that is also brass. They don’t run very well, and the one I put sound in only sounds fair.
But Oh do they look nice. There are lots out there and the older ones seem to look better than the newer ones. Its a toss up. I have two new articulateds that sure run nice and look good - until they sit beside one of the brass
You pay your money and you take your choice.
The main difference between brass and plastic is production volume. For an odd model that only a few people would want, plastic’s tooling costs make it very expensive. Brass, OTOH, can be worked with hand tools, making it very cost effective for a limited production run. Of course, it means that the low volume brass product will have a high price tag, but for those who are interested in unique, detailed models, it really isn’t an issue. They’ll have something unique, unlike the thousands of generic plastic versions that are mass produced. They really want the unique versions that have limited appeal, which in turn limits their potential for mass production.
ya whats the big deal with this brass stuff
what do they see in it
If you really want a Pennsy S-2 you’d probably better get the brass one if you can afford it. PRR only had one and that’s going to severly limit the number sold, even given the plethora of PRR fans out there.
But then look at how many different runs of Big Boys there’ve been (currently yet another TWO from 2 different mfrs) and UP only had a couple dozen. Is it possible that the number of Big Boy models built actually outwiegh the prototypes?
Is that to say 2 million pounds of Big Boy models? Probably not far from the truth!
At any rate, brass locos are nice, generally speaking,only the recent ones have good quality drives, the older one will have lower quality drives. Most (if not all) can be upgraded to a high quality, precision made drive, either yourself if you have the tools and expertise, or by a number of reputable shops that will do this for you (for a fee).
Plastic locos in recent years are nice, too, most of them having high quality drives, and detailing rivaling most brass locos. The biggest 2 differences between the 2 are price, and brass models are usually of a specific prototype, sometimes several versions of the same prototype, but in different years (maybe as an “as delivered” model versus “1951 rebuild version” model), whereas the plastic models are often more generic. Recently, plastic models (steam and diesel) have prototype specific details.
In my opinion, it boils down to this: you can buy the plastic model and have a reasonably close version of the prototype, or spend the big bucks and have an exact replica of the real thing. If you’re modeling a specific RR, in a specific area, in a particular timeframe, and you want a model of an engine that is historically accurate for your chosen prototype, then brass may be the way to go. If, on the other hand, you just want a brass model just because “it looks cool”, or because you haven’t seen another
The ‘Brass Thing’ has a lot of variables. For instance, if you’re like me and modeling a railroad during the steam era whose locomotives are simply NOT available in the newer plastic models, you don’t have much choice, unless I want to just pick up a generic 2-8-2 and letter it “Denver and Rio Grande Western” and pop a #1204 decal on the cab-side. Okay, I’ll have a 1200-class 2-8-2, but it won’t be Rio Grande prototype. I’ll want a model of a REAL Rio Grande 2-8-2 (or any other wheel arrangement) and for that, at the present time, I have to go brass.
And with brass, you don’t get something that runs flawlessly right out of the box, you have to ‘tinker’ a bit. I’ve been collecting and running brass longer than some of you guys have been alive, and believe me, I’m used to ‘tinkering.’ But if I want a SPECIFIC locomotive, todays plastic and die-cast steamers–fine as they are–don’t generally fit my criteria (though I have several that I run on a ‘loan-out’ basis, since my model RR is set in WWII, when railroads were borrowing or buying ‘foreign’ power like crazy, just to keep the traffic rolling). But I model D&RGW and Espee steam, and generally speaking, that means Brass. I don’t mind ‘tinkering’ with them. They’re easy to work on, very forgiving, and generally quite simple to tweak. And they run just fine, thank you. Okay, maybe I have a couple of ‘coffee-grinders’ as far as noise, but those same ‘coffee-grinders’ are crawling up my 2.2% grades with some mighty impressive loads. Sound? I dont’ know, haven’t tried to put sound decoders in any of them (I have an under-table sound system with Doppler that’s just fine, thank you). I have brass dating from the 1950’s, and as the open-frame motors get tired out, I pop in a NWSL can (and occasionally a NWSL gearbox), and they’re just as good as new. Okay, maybe the older brass isn’t detailed down to the last rivet, but I’m not looking at them through a
[quote user=“twhite”]
The ‘Brass Thing’ has a lot of variables. For instance, if you’re like me and modeling a railroad during the steam era whose locomotives are simply NOT available in the newer plastic models, you don’t have much choice, unless I want to just pick up a generic 2-8-2 and letter it “Denver and Rio Grande Western” and pop a #1204 decal on the cab-side. Okay, I’ll have a 1200-class 2-8-2, but it won’t be Rio Grande prototype. I’ll want a model of a REAL Rio Grande 2-8-2 (or any other wheel arrangement) and for that, at the present time, I have to go brass.
And with brass, you don’t get something that runs flawlessly right out of the box, you have to ‘tinker’ a bit. I’ve been collecting and running brass longer than some of you guys have been alive, and believe me, I’m used to ‘tinkering.’ But if I want a SPECIFIC locomotive, todays plastic and die-cast steamers–fine as they are–don’t generally fit my criteria (though I have several that I run on a ‘loan-out’ basis, since my model RR is set in WWII, when railroads were borrowing or buying ‘foreign’ power like crazy, just to keep the traffic rolling). But I model D&RGW and Espee steam, and generally speaking, that means Brass. I don’t mind ‘tinkering’ with them. They’re easy to work on, very forgiving, and generally quite simple to tweak. And they run just fine, thank you. Okay, maybe I have a couple of ‘coffee-grinders’ as far as noise, but those same ‘coffee-grinders’ are crawling up my 2.2% grades with some mighty impressive loads. Sound? I dont’ know, haven’t tried to put sound decoders in any of them (I have an under-table sound system with Doppler that’s just fine, thank you). I have brass dating from the 1950’s, and as the open-frame motors get tired out, I pop in a NWSL can (and occasionally a NWSL gearbox), and they’re just as good as new. Okay, maybe the older brass isn’t detailed down to the last rivet, but I’m not lo
Absoluely. And general hobbyists need to understand that when it comes to collecting brass, those that actually purchase them to run on a layout are in the extreme minority.
Most brass models never turn a wheel in their lifetime. Howard Zane, brass collector and seller, once remarked that, at today’s prices, anyone who runs brass trains on a layout has to be crazy! Rather they typically occupy display cases instead. Many brass enthusiasts collect such models strictly to have accurate representations of specific motive power from their favorite RR. Others collect brass virtually as art objects and examples of fine craftsmanship. Some even buy them simply as an example of their social position and affluence to outsiders. Understand as well, that in spite of what many non-owners of brass have to say, when it comes to detail, the quality of a modern brass steamer far outdistances the best plastic models currently on the market.
In short, most hobbyist buy brass models for one form or another of their aesthetic aspect…not to run in little circles on layouts.
CNJ831
I have one brass steam engine and one caboose. The caboose is painted in Ontario Northland colours and is just beautiful, way to nice to run on the layout but I still do sometimes. The brass steam engine is probably the nicest looking loco I own and I enjoy showing it to people when they come over. The thing runs like crap though and that sort of bothers me. It was a gift from my wife and she paid a fair bit for it so I would expect it to run perfect. I hear this is common for brass steamers, I guess you don’t hear about it much because hardly anybody runs them . I bought a nice case for it and that is were it will stay.
CNJ831,
While I agree that, nationwide, brass is a collector’s hobby and spends most of it’s time in display cases or in the box, in my personal experience those that own brass also run at least some of it.
Admittingly, my sample size is tiny (just the 60+ members of my RR club), but at our last Open House this past weekend, there were at least 10 brass locos running around.
That’s not to say that everyone does, since we’re DCC not everyone wants to convert all their brass. But I’d say that most if not all the brass collectors in our club have at least one DCC equipped piece to use at the club. But I’m sure we’re the exception that proves the rule, sort-to-speak.
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
Add me to the list of brass owners who will run their locomotives! If I have laid my main in such a way that the locomotive will actually run on it, then I will use the Key PRR J1 to me wrinkled heart’s content…this would be in, say, 2009,…maybe…when they get around to it…you know?
Just to chime in on this, I purchase brass rolling stock when I “have to”. The latest reservation I made is for a Coach Yard Santa Fe division superintendent’s business car (400 series shorty). This is a car that will most certainly never be produced in plastic, but if it were, I would definately buy it in plastic as opposed to brass. Same with the “Topeka” business car I purchased. It has never been produced in plastic, and probably never will be. I do run my brass rolling stock. For what I pay, I figure that it better get some use.
It does seem that the importers will cancel projects if there is not enough interest through advance reservations. I just saw this happen not too long ago (I can’t remember what it was for , though), and have heard of this happening a few times in the past.
There are of course, as mentioned above, the types who just collect this stuff and it sits in display cases. I have seen a few times on eBay where someone is selling off their collection and states how all their stuff just sat in display cases, or at times never made it out of the box. I don’t think that I could do that.
One thing that does really irritate me with brass rolling stock is that I have had to tune up trucks for passenger cars that are brand new out of the box to get them to roll right. For the price you pay, they oughta be good to go. Oh well. Not everything is easy I suppose.
For streetcar or interurban modelers, brass is pretty much the only game in town aside from scratchbuilding. If you want to model anything powered by overhead wire, your off-the-shelf choices are limited to either Bachmann’s cheapo Brill and PCC (which require considerable reworking to run from overhead) or five Bowser cast-metal bodies (Brill and PCC streetcars, and Jewett, IRR and LVT interurbans.) NOBODY makes an electric steeplecab, boxcab or box motor in plastic. (Before anyone mentions the MRR Warehouse GE steeplecab kit, that’s not a working locomotive but a kit for an undetailed plastic shell that comes without power, frame, details or trucks.) There are always wooden LaBelle kits for wood interurban prototypes, also generally supplied without power, trucks or poles, and always an exciting challenge to build…
Brass models of many interurban and trolley prototypes are rare even by brass standards, but at least they were once produced, and can be found by those who skulk around enough on eBay and at swap meets. Since they are less popular, and typically pretty small, they are often cheaper than brass steam locomotives.
Interurban modeling, like narrow gauge, is a tiny subset of the hobby, one that even many model railroaders aren’t familiar with, and producing such models in plastic is impractical except for the most common and popular types that will sell anywhere (thus the Bachmann Brill and PCC.) This may change, as it seems that traction modeling is having something of a renaissance, but it’s still an “oddball” thing to model. But in the meantime, brass is generally the only option for the electric-railroad modeler.
Back as a teenager in the seventies I was begining to earn money to be able to afford an occasional piece of brass. I was in awe of brass as it had a real mistique about it. The detail and running quality was poor then, but riverossi plastic steam was regarded as poor running even back then and this was an era before many remotoring and regearing kits were available or known so if you did steam, brass was the way to go.
One could get a berk or northern for $150 to $200 range, higher demand and quality engines of that size may have run you $300 to $350 at the time. Typically they all ran like junk, I had a PFM NKP berk that I had remotored and a NKP products pocono that also required remotoring. Sometime in the early nineties, the amount of new brass being made and imported into teh US fell off drastically and by the mid nineties teh used market seemed to dry up vs what one used to be able to find and buy in the late eighties for comparrison. I also noticed that the prices for what was baing made was going out of sight. Probably true from what others have said the detail and running qualities were far superior vs offerings from decades previous BUT…the mystique ahd gone for me and reality set in. Back when I was coughing up say $250 for a poor running and mediocre detailed brass steam I could get a decent atlas diesle and add dtail and paint and for $60 and labor have smooth running good looking engine. I began to wonder what was I paying so much for since I had to do much more in teh running, paint and detail department when for well under a hundred skins I could have something very nice.
Today, one can look at a brass 8 coupled for over a grand and a plastic 8 coupled for about a quarter of the price. Unless someone collects or absolutely must have an item, brass is still a bad investment to me.
All my brass is passenger cars and I do run them. I find that I have to fine tune the trucks to get them to run better. For what I model, brass is my only optionas the cars won’t be mass produced and I’m finding that I’m going to have to thin my collection-SP/UP cars only
Ch
Paul–you make a good point. Most of the other railroaders I know out in my neck of the woods who ‘collect’ brass run a good portion of their locos. For myself, I run ALL of mine at one time or another, so it’s imperative that they stay in good operating condition. Frankly, if I were going to just stare at them in a display case, why would I want them? It seems kind of silly to me to have a new $1,300 Precision Scale Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2 sitting on the mantle, then taking a friend of mine out to the layout in the garage to watch a plastic 2-10-2 that I’ve slapped Rio Grande decals on pull a coal train when we BOTH know that the PSC F-81 will do the job better and look like the real thing.
Hey, the brass collectors can ‘collect’, all they want, and with my blessings, but my brass are painted and revved and ready to run at any given moment. And like I said in my previous post, I don’t buy brass to ‘buy brass’, I buy brass because for my particular loco roster needs, it’s the only thing available at the present time. Now if BLI or Precision Craft want to come out with a plastic L-131 2-8-8-2, I will be first in line and chomping at the bit. I’m not a snob, I just like running Rio Grande steam. And in the present market, Rio Grande steam means Brass. That’s the way it is, it’s simply a reality that I have to deal with.
Tom
The “brass” thing is whatever you make it. Back when, I got quite a few brass steam engines, because that was the only way I could get the prototype engines I wanted. As better plastic models have become available, I have sold all but two of my brass engines (an N&W Class J and a streamlined K2). I always bought everything to run on my layout, and painted what was unpainted. I took care of stuff and always at least got my money back. I addressed any runability issues and all my engines run, or ran, flawlessly. I found tuning up brass engines to be fairly easy, as long as one was not afraid to disassemble something and get to the root of the issue, when necessary. I did have a couple of models where I could not get a slow speed hitch out of the system, until I changed out the factory ‘U’ joints in the drivelive, and went to constant speed universal joints (flexible tubing). When I sold some of these I did inform the buyer, and all the original parts were included with the engine.
I am not a rivet counter (my brass J has two bells on it - N&W moved it in real life), but I do want an engine that represents the prototype relatively well. I find the level of detail on say a P2K like the Virginian Berk or N&W Y3, or the BLI N&W Class A and their Class J (in spite of the marker lights) to be excellent enough for me. I do not have a PCM Y6B, yet, but I sold all my brass Y’s. Oh, and I sold my fleet of auxiliary tenders and bought Spectrum replacements for a HUGE savings too.
If there is no prototypical alternative, and I could afford it, I would buy brass without hesitation.