"This is a dangerous train..."

[DanLW]

Yesterday I browsed through the 16 pages of the “Locomotives” area of the forum, and came across an interesting comment:

"However, in the past, I’ve found that if they get a chance to think about it, experienced people can always explain how and why they did things the way they did. My most recent example was a locomotive engineer who stepped out of the change point office, glanced up and down his train, and shook his head. He mumbled “This is a dangerous train…” and when I asked him how he knew that, he gave me a laundry list of accurate observations. Along with, “Every train is different.”

The post was in the thread “How do they synchronize locomotives?” in the “Locomotives” section of this forum.

So, my question to you engineers is what are some of the signs that the train you’re about to operate is a dangerous train?

[csxengineer98]

first off…let me say that in my oppion no one train is more “dangerouse” to run then any other… the job as a whole has enought risk in it as it is without pinpointing one area of “danger”… but as far as a running a train…yes they are all differnt… but it could have been due to any number of things that in his mind felt gave this train more risk then others to run…maybe the loads to emptys and where they where in the train wasnt to his likeing but within the rules to take… or maybe the train was a key train and was loaded with all kinds of nasty haz mats and he didnt like them kind of trains… but if the train was built wrong for any reason and he still took it… that is is fult and he is risking big FRA fines as well as some major leagel headacks if something bad should happen or gets cought by the FRA… it is his job as well as anyone else on his crew (aka conductor) to make sure the train is right befor he leaves the yard with it… not doing something to fix it befor he pulls…he and his crew are assuming ALL the responsiblity should something bad happen or they get bored by the FRA…

csx engineer

[zardoz]

So, my question to you engineers is what are some of the signs that the train you’re about to operate is a dangerous train?

The Top Ten list of why a train is especially dangerous:

10. Improper placement of blocks of loads/empties

11. Improper placement of haz-mat cars

12. Total number of haz-mat cars

13. Lethality of the haz-mat cars

14. Improper placement of long/short cars

15. Insufficient power for the tonnage

16. Too much power for the tonnage

17. Extreme length of train

18. Extreme tonnage of a mixed train

and of course the number one reason a particular train is dangerous:…

1. Conductor already asleep before train is even moving

[Expresslane]

A sleeping engineer is more dangerous. Many years ago as head brakeman and looking across the cab to see the hogger sleeping. Much more dangerous than a sleeping conductor.

[trainboyH16-44]

If I was a conductor, I’d sleep…

Hogger? I hope not.

[wiley-dispatcher]

I’d have to say the hardest part of the conductor job is staying awake on the line of road. After you know the route, you’re already tired from being called right on your rest, and the rhythmic rocking of the engines on the rail was enough to get me dozing. I was terrified to fall asleep because I’ve worked with several engineers who dozed themselves. And to me any train with a sleepy crew is a dangerous train. If you look at several of the last major train collisions it was due to crew fatigue.

I once woke up in my own bed having thought I awoke in conductors seat of an engine and had fallen asleep for lord knows how long. Luckily when my senses came back to me I was indeed laying in my own bed. My wife woke up and asked what was wrong and I said I’m working too much, I just thought I was on a train!

[zardoz]

A sleeping engineer is more dangerous. Many years ago as head brakeman and looking across the cab to see the hogger sleeping. Much more dangerous than a sleeping conductor.

Before napping permitted during delays enroute, I would make a deal with the conductor: You can sleep while we go down the road, but when we stop somewhere, I nap while you have to stay awake to watch for signals to proceed.

I’d get real upset when we’d be sitting in a siding and I’d glace at the conductor and he’d be asleep there as well; needless to say I wouldn’t allow him to sleep the rest of the trip!

[DanLW]

I’m sure there are times when a train has just one or two things that are possibly questionable, but still within the regs. The feeling I get from the comment was that there were probably a whole lot of things about the train that were iffy, but still within the regulations.

How does the railroad feel if an engineer refuses to operate a train based off of an abundance of questionable items, any one of which is actually within regulations? I have heard that there are pilots who will nit-pick their aircraft. How much tolerance for nit-picking a train is there in the railroad industry?

However, I suppose that it is possible for a train to be dangerous yet be soundly in the regulations with no questionable items. These would be things where it would take an experienced engineer with years and years of road experience to realize. Things that by themselves are perfectly safe, but when combined in a certain way can actually be dangerous.

[TrainFreak409]

About the question in hand…Was the engineer examining solely the locomotives, or the entire consist? Usually the engineer only handles the power and the weight distribution, he/she is not required to visually inspect the cars, but that’s not saying they can’t.

Before napping permitted during delays enroute, I would make a deal witht he conductor: You can sleep while we go down the road, but when we stop somewhere, I nap while you have to stay awake to watch for signals to proceed.

I’d get real upset when we’d be sitting in a siding and I’d glace at the conductor and he’d be asleep there as well; needless to say I wouldn’t allow him to sleep the rest of the trip!

Y’all are allowed to nap during delays? We ain’t even allowed to look like we are asleep at any time! Not saying that it does or does not happen though. And usually the arrangement with our crews is that if need be the conductor can rest during travel and then must be alert during a stop signal or something so the engineer can rest.

As a new conductor, that’s probably the hardest thing I find about the job is staying awake, but I do believe a sleeping engineer is worse than a sleeping conductor. Although, along the NEC and Port Road was have cab signals and loco-speed limiters that work in sync and give you penalties for speeding or not acknowledging a signal change, so it doesn’t happen much, but there’s still a good risk.

Easiest way to stay awake…talk with each other! That’s what I’ve found.

[CNW_6000]

I know two conductors who stay awake by working on MR projects during delays.

[DanLW]

Although, along the NEC and Port Road was have cab signals and loco-speed limiters that work in sync and give you penalties for speeding or not acknowledging a signal change, so it doesn’t happen much, but there’s still a good risk.

What kind of penalties? Do they dock some money from your wages or is it something like a demerit that goes on your record, presumably resulting in getting fired if you accrue too many?

[TrainFreak409]

Although, along the NEC and Port Road was have cab signals and loco-speed limiters that work in sync and give you penalties for speeding or not acknowledging a signal change, so it doesn’t happen much, but there’s still a good risk.

What kind of penalties? Do they dock some money from your wages or is it something like a demerit that goes on your record, presumably resulting in getting fired if you accrue too many?

Penalty brake applications. If you do not acknowledge the signal drop, or the speed limit associated with it and you are overspeed, it stops the train with a service brake application. Problem with that is it doesn’t know if you have a kicker in the train, so if you do get a penalty brake with kickers in the train, it goes into emergency and then we conductors get to take a long walk…

[WSOR_3801]

I think the engine will make a penalty brake application, slowing things down, and probably make a lot of noise in the cab. Although it would probably show on the event recoder, and discipline can be assessed from that…

[videomaker]

A sleeping engineer is more dangerous. Many years ago as head brakeman and looking across the cab to see the hogger sleeping. Much more dangerous than a sleeping conductor.

Before napping permitted during delays enroute, I would make a deal witht he conductor: You can sleep while we go down the road, but when we stop somewhere, I nap while you have to stay awake to watch for signals to proceed.

I’d get real upset when we’d be sitting in a siding and I’d glace at the conductor and he’d be asleep there as well; needless to say I wouldn’t allow him to sleep the rest of the trip!

Whoooo son ! Payaback is h-e-double hockey sticks aint it !

[zardoz]

About the question in hand…Was the engineer examining solely the locomotives, or the entire consist? Usually the engineer only handles the power and the weight distribution, he/she is not required to visually inspect the cars, but that’s not saying they can’t.

Before napping permitted during delays enroute, I would make a deal witht he conductor: You can sleep while we go down the road, but when we stop somewhere, I nap while you have to stay awake to watch for signals to proceed.

I’d get real upset when we’d be sitting in a siding and I’d glace at the conductor and he’d be asleep there as well; needless to say I wouldn’t allow him to sleep the rest of the trip!

Y’all are allowed to nap during delays? We ain’t even allowed to look like we are asleep at any time! Not saying that it does or does not happen though. And usually the arrangement with our crews is that if need be the conductor can rest during travel and then must be alert during a stop signal or something so the engineer can rest.

As a new conductor, that’s probably the hardest thing I find about the job is staying awake, but I do believe a sleeping engineer is worse than a sleeping conductor. Although, along the NEC and Port Road was have cab signals and loco-speed limiters that work in sync and give you penalties for speeding or not acknowledging a signal change, so it doesn’t happen much, but there’s still a good risk.

Easiest way to stay awake…talk with each other! That’s what I’ve found.

Not allowing a crew to doze when sitting in a siding is the most absurd rule there is on the railroad, implemented and enforced by those persons that do not have to live the lifestyle of a operating department railroader.

Oh sure, I know Trainmasters and Supervisors are subject to call; however, the are not routinely getting called at all hours.

[snagletooth]

Didn’t one of the Canadian roads (CN comes to mind) experiment with sleeping bags or something similar back in the early 90’s so crews could rest if stopped in a siding? Seem I remember an small glip in Trains about it once.