Thoughts on the new Lionel 2025 catalog

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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Big anniversaries like a 125th only come once, and how many companies make it to 125 years? Not too many.
Were I in their place I’d have outshopped (There’s a traditional railroad term for you!) an affordable 125th Anniversary set built around a LionChief+ Hudson and a series of Madison cars…

Just my opinion, but I sort of feel like Lionel has diluted the importance of the anniversary dates at this point. I’d agree that 125 is probably considered huge, being 1 1/4 centuries.

Of course they did things for the 100th (famous gold plated Hudson, both “Century Club” programs on either side of the 100th Anniversary, etc.). I don’t recall them doing anything for 105 or 110 years (though they might have), but they certainly did for 115 (a silver plated Berkshire), and they did some things for the 120th. In fairness, (not to just pick on “current” Lionel), MPC of course did things like the 75th (which made sense, IMO) and 90th Anniversary (really??) sets too.

I thought this set of Santa Fe F3s and re-issues of some of the classic post war freight cars was a nice set, along the similar sort of “celebrate the heritage” train of thought for the Hudson with Madison cars set you suggest. Maybe it’s not considered in the “affordable” realm though. (though the catalog list price was $1100, I think I paid something closer to around $800-$900 or so for it) Had this not been LionChief 2+ (TMCC/Legacy remote compatible), I doubt I would have gone for it, much as I am not considering that “what if” NYC F3 set in this catalog that is only conventional, without even a horn included. (but the transformer they include has a horn button! :wink: )

My point being, the way Lionel has been doing this, it’s only 5 years until the 130th Anniversary offerings!

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22

Aside from custom builders no-one’s doing Standard Gauge now. MTH was enthusiastic about it but not anymore. Lionel was actually getting theirs from MTH and putting their name on it. Williams Standard Gauge has been gone for a long, long time.
I have to assume Standard Gauge is a niche market that neither Lionel or MTH choose to serve anymore, for a variety of reasons.

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23

Good point on diluting anniversary dates. The stand-out ones for most people are typically 25, 50, 100 year marks. Then the cycle repeats as 125, 150, and so on.

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The price bumps have been unbelievable. Just a couple of years ago standard LC sets were $350 I believe, now they’re all the way up to $550! And the Vision locos are absurd. The J1-e’s are $1,300 I think! I don’t know how many people can afford them at this point but I know I can’t. Even standard O boxcars are $90 in some cases! Though I wouldn’t buy any of that being a Flyer guy, it still blows my mind.

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25

Long live American Flyer!

Rich

26

At the Spring 2024 York show, MTH had hinted that perhaps more Standard gauge items were forthcoming. Looking at their news section, it seems there’s nothing posted there.

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27

Thanks Rene!
Maybe getting Standard Gauge rolling again might be proving a bit more difficult than they thought. Or maybe it was just a “Maybe.” Only MTH knows for certain.
At the October York Show I had a fun conversation with Walt Matuch of RMT and asked if the “Beep” diesels were ever coming back. He just gave a non-commital shrug which I interpreted as “Well maybe, but don’t hold your breath!”
Sometimes thing happen when they happen and it’s best not to expect otherwise.

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No way would I spend $90 on a boxcar. Maybe, MAYBE I’d go up to $70 if it was a really cool boxcar like a 1930’s era billboard boxcar but that’s all.

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For sure. I think its only the licensed ones that are $90, the rest are cheaper.

30

You’re right, Flintlock, SG is niche, but it does occupy a significant place right now at the quasi-century mark for the Classic Era.

Not really a big deal for me, as I run originals, but you’d think there’d at least be a boxcar with special graphics for those who appreciate the original Lionel tinplate.

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I’ll say this much, the Standard Gauge Operating Society’s mega-layout at the TCA’s York show always draws a lot of admirers! It’s a real sight to see!

32

MTH really saturated the SG market to the point that they had to go beyond traditional reproductions with paint and Graphics Lionel couldn’t have dreamed of between 06 and 42. Consider how expensive it’s always been and how much the prices on everything increased in the new catalog and it doesn’t make much sense to continue SG right now. On the way out the door LCT cataloged 16 different paint schemes for the 400E in 2016.

Overall SG is holding it’s value very well, both original Lionel, Ives, Flyer and Dorfan and modern reissues. Once MTH cataloged “The Brute” there wasn’t much more territory left to cover.

But I do wish they had come out with the smaller electrics like the 33 & 53 and the Flyer New Haven boxcabs at the head of starter sets is a market niche that was overlooked in my opinion. The 384E and 10E starter sets were great, but I think the small electrics from before the golden age are even more important in the history of Standard Gauge.

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33

Great observation and analysis Becky! Well done indeed!

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Nothing in the catalog was ever going to be for me- I can’t really afford new, and it’s never been my interest. I’d rather by vintage, secondhand equipment.

I do think that the cost of living, compared to how much the average person makes, does make it harder especially for young people to get into the hobby. Someone worrying about college debt and making ends meet can’t make a habit of buying $700 engines or building a fleet of $90 boxcars, you know?

I think Lionel is focusing on high end products and on franchise tie-in products mostly, and using the battery RC trains as their “affordable” option. I’m not really a fan, but I was never going to be their target customer really, was I? I have some concern about how the prices may affect the future of O gauge, but at the end of the day Lionel seem to have a sense of where they want to focus their efforts, and its their prerogative to decide what to bring to market.

One thing that worries me, that isn’t a new trend, is Lionel moving away from items that are derrived from postwar tooling. On the one hand, yes, ancient tooling is not really a good look in the model railroading world, and nostalgia isn’t going to be a valid marketing tool forever. But at the same time, right now it’s fairly easy and affordable to maintain the vintage trains most of us know and love. And a lot of that is thanks to parts being available cheap, because they were produced in large quantities, because Lionel was still making certain parts and products for their line. As these reissues have dried up, some of these repair parts have started to dry up. There are now many replacement parts that used to be everywhere, which I’m now discovering I simply cannot find! Or, when they can be found, the prices are badly inflated because they’re no longer readily available.

Of course Lionel has no reason or need to continue to support trains that were made decades upon decades ago, it makes sense that they don’t. I simply bring it up, because it is already making it harder for me, and presumably others too, to maintain and repair their trains.

I personally have no stake in whether or not current Lionel has success or troubles in the future, I suppose we’ll see how they get on with their current strategy.

-El

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35

$10 in 1950 is about $130 in 2024 when adjusted for inflation.

Just saying

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36

Good point, but we also have to take into consideration the relative purchasing power of that $10 plus the costs of other articles at the time.
For example, five cents for a six ounce GLASS bottle of Coca-Cola or the average candy bar bigger than anything on the market today.
The purchase of a Lionel train back then was a choice of discretionary and recreational spending just as much as it is now. The question is how much discretionary spending does the average person have today? And there’s a LOT of competition for that discretionary spending.

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37

What’s really scary is those 1950 dollars were at “add a zero” in 2014; $10 = $100. I read that what Lionel’s 700EW cost in 1937 could also buy a refrigerator. Remember $20 UMD and MDK boxcars?

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The refrigerator example is instructive if followed to its conclusion. Consider that a fridge in that time kept food cold and frozen in its dedicated compartments. It did not deliver water, ice (in two or three forms). It lacked a micro processor, and it was a fraction of the size of its current descendants. In other words, some of the disparity in cost is not a function of inflation or whatever monetary adjustments must be heeded but rather a function of a difference in degree large enough to be a difference in kind.

This is true to an extent also of the 700EW, but there are two significant differences: first, the fridge is a necessity, but the Hudson was/is not, with the corollary that everyone wants a fridge whereas the market for the Hudson is small. The second is that there is a great deal more competition for the 2025 dollar than there was for the 1937 dollar. Yet, the prices of some things haven’t changed anywhere near as much, such as the price for certain food stuffs, the food market being driven by variables much more complex than the market for household appliances or toys (which also hints at the vastly different market for trains than existed in '37).

All this is to say that the “Inflation Index” you find on google is an overly simplistic way of comparing prices nearly a century apart.

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I like to do the Lionel 700e price comparison like this:
In 1939 a 700e cost $75, but that same $75 would have gotten you a Winchester 30-30 rifle and a Colt .38 revolver AND you would have had $5 change coming after the gun purchases!
Of course the 700e is the outlier. Lionel had a pretty good price spread of more affordables. Not dirt cheap of course but excellent quality and pretty affordable.

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Even if Lionel stop making AF trains, I hope they keep making AF Fastrack. It’s the only sectional S gauge track being made and it works with scale wheels as well as hirail.

As for 3 rail O gauge, I think I’ll just go with Menards.

Paul

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