I have two questions…
First, why did SP never give the PAs the Black Widow scheme?
Second, were PAs ever used in freight service?
Third, what were the purpose of the very large lights the SP used on some diesels and what types of units had them? (I recently saw a HO brass SP U50 with such a light)
Steven, SP’s pure passenger power (E units and PAs) was delivered in the daylight scheme due to its popularity with the traveling public of the late 1940/early 1950 era. The daylight paint was SP’s version of Santa Fe’s warbonnet or NYC’s lightning stripes. In 1958 SP painted E-9s 6048 and 6050 in the black widow scheme but, like the halloween scheme, this experiment met with disfavor. It was all a moot point anyway because the bloody nose scheme was instituted in late 1958 and the rest is history. The use of any SP passenger power in freight service is doubtful when you consider SP’s territory and their penchant for coupling everything except the yard office, between the power and the caboose. On question three, as far as I can find there were no “large” lights on the three U-50s. Are you referring to the large “ashcan” warning lights as found on the FM switchers, SD-7/GP-9/SD-9 etc? They were Mars lights just like the one found on 4-8-4 4449. They were later replaced by Pyle Gyralights.
I’m talking about the ashcan lights.
Did the SP have FAs?
SP did not have any FA/FBs. Suggest you become familiar with www.sphts.org and www.espee.railfan.net. If you are looking for ashcans, check Details Associates and Details West in HO.
The SP had a slug of F3A & F3Bs in Black Widow and they frequently pulled Daylight Coastal Passenger trains.
This is a pair at Walong CA in 1958.
Mel
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
My Model Railroad
And a less than ideal configuration of the locos, too, A-A-B.
–Randy
Randy
I suspect the lead A is a helper from Bakersfield to Tehachapi. Walong is near the Tehachapi Loop, Bakersfield is at 400’ and Tehachapi is a bit over 4000’, (40mi).
Mel
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is no
I always wondered why the Western Pacific bought their early Geeps with the big “Ashcan” headlights. Maybe they had a huge stock of Edison-base headlamp bulbs and didn’t want to spend money on the sealed-beams?
WPgeep729 by Edmund, on Flickr
They just look a little… odd out there.
Cheers, Ed
The large lights on the SP SDs were Mars lights.
Mel
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
So theoretically a PA/PB set could be painted in black widow, theoretically…
The big old Ashcan Mars were installed on hood units only? Could they have been seen on covered wagons, or steam?
It is your railroad, do what you want, but theoretically, no, there would not be a SP PA in the black widow scheme.
OK, too bad, I still might paint one up in that scheme one day…
The headlights came from retired steam locomotives.
No reason for the big ash can Mars light on an F unit - see the black widow ones, the upper light IS a Mars light. The lower one that is on is the regular headlight. Fairly common setup for F units from other roads as well (excpet mine - they were far too cheap to spring for all those fancy extra warning lights and flashers. Reading F units has one headlight, and that’s it).
–Randy
WP requested the single bulb Pyle-National headlights on their GP-7/9/20/35s and first two orders of the GP-40. According to “Western Pacific Diesel Years” by Joseph A. Strapac, somewhat tongue in cheek, it is written a WP purchasing agent got a real bargain on the bulbs in boxcar load lots. As time passed and possibly all of the bulbs were exhausted, the barrel lights were replaced with regular twin sealed beams. On the GP-35s and GP-40s, because the headlights were mounted between the numberboards, Translite conversion plates similar to Detail Associates offering were used. Elsewhere in North America, Canadian National also opted for Pyle-Nationals or a reasonal facsimile thereof on their 42 inch gauge GMD built NF-210 end cab roadswitchers as well as their GP-7s. I wonder how good that bargain on the bulbs was because, the Pyle-National barrel on a WP GP-20 was an additional $165.00 option.
Steven, although they could be used in freight service (some roads did use them for fast freight service) EMD E’s and ALCO FA’s were geared for speed with freer-rolling passenger cars. Freight cars, at least in the “transition years,” used friction bearings, which produced more drag, particularly when starting. (We soon learned not to say something wasn’t so, as somebody would promptly dig out a picture of whatever it was, proving us wrong. Better safe than sorry, but I read the above information in Model Railroader years ago.)
Deano
Nothing is absolute in railroading, the instant someone says “Railroad X never did Y”, someone else will find a photo proving them wrong. But in general - a passenger geared loco wouldn;t be able to start as heavy a freight train as a freight geared loco - and woe if there were any significant grades to climb.
Some railroads did get away with it, on a regular basis. But I’m guessing that because their passenger trains ran with frequent stops, they didn’t have the high speed gearing of a longer distance passenger loco because acceleration from the frequent stops was the key factor in maintaining the schedule. Such a loco would be geared more like a freight loco, and so could handle freight trains with ease.
–Randy
Interestingly enough, the SP painted the PAs into the bloody nose scheme
Starting in 1958 the Cotton Belt’s spare PA-1 would make turns on freight trains between Pine Bluff and Memphis. There are photos of the Daylight painted PA-1 operating in a mixed consist at Kentucky Street in Memphis.
I might be mistaken, but I believe the New Haven used their DL-109 engines for passenger trains in the daytime, and for freight at night. The DL-109s were purchased for passenger service.
This was during WWII, so anything is possible.