They say a picture is worth a thousand words. See if this makes it clear enough for you, Paul.
Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog?
Thanks a lot, I appreciate it, heading to bed, maybe it’ll make more sense when I’m more alert.
I’ll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I’m a newbie at this, I can do it I just don’t want to mess it up.
Here’s another drawing, with the parts labeled. I have this time included the approximate location of the gaps that make the frog a non-powered one. The rest of the parts are also labeled, and just for simplicity, I called one side + and the other -. They are also colored to show the electrical relationship of the parts to each other. You can either “replace” the jumpers as I said in my earlier posts or substitute feeders.
Since the problem only seems to be happening when you attempt to go thru the turnout along the “straight” side, I would suggest that you add the feeder approximately where the circle is. You could of course add all new jumpers in the approximate locations shown on the drawing, as I originally suggested in my original answer.
Adding just the one feeder would be easiest.
This whole discussion seems to be getting much more complicated than it needs to be.
The first question that I have about the most recent part of this thread is: what happened Paul when you slid that straight edge along the rails to the frog as superbe suggested? Did it pass easily over the frog or did it get hung up?
Secondly, you can add feeders to the rails on all three ends of the turnout without causing a short unless the turnout leads into or out of a reverse loop. But, if the power pick up wheels are being lifted off the rails by a raised frog, then the feeders aren’t going to solve the problem.
Third, Atlas doesn’t make electrofrog turnouts. The point rails get their from the jumpers on the underside of the turnout, not from powering the frog.
Fourth, as I recall from your original post at the beginning of the thread, the loss of power only occurs at the slowest speeds as the loco is moving in reverse. So the power pickup wheels on the tender are the affected area as they try to move through the frog. At slow speeds, they bind. At higher speeds, the wheels get through the frog without binding.
One thing you might do is to temporarily replace the offending turnout with a spare or if you don’t have a spare, swap the offending turnout with another turnout from your layout. That way, you can eliminate the tender as the problem and focus on the turnout.
I still say that a light filing of the sides and base of the frog ought to solve the problem if, indeed, the frog is the problem.
If the affected loco goes through the turnout in forward and doesn’t get hung up, and if other locos all get through the turnout at slow speeds without a problem, forward and reverse, then the problem with the turnout is not the jumpers but the tight frog. You gotta pin that down, close in on the true source of the problem. You are still in the investigative stage.
Rich
Since I helped Paul lay the track, I can help offer some insight. He is working with a Walthers RH curved turnout, as stated in the original post. My question is, did Paul check the wheel gauge on the tender? If it’s a bit tight or wide, that could cause the wheels to be lifted by the wing or guard rails or frog. Also check the flange depth, but since this is a new model, I doubt this is the issue. Paul said he checked the turnout, I believe, but I don’t know if he checked the model. This should have been done first, since his others seem to have no problems.
If the wheelsets check out fine, then it’s time to focus on the turnout. Since Paul’s trackplan only has one such turnout, swapping it isn’t an option. I’d second the suggestion of fully checking the T/O with the VOM, make sure every last inch is getting power. Assuming this has been done and checks out OK, then it’s time to check and see why the tender wheels are being lifted. Theoretically, if the T/O and wheels all check out with the NMRA gauge, there shouldn’t be a reason for this. I’d check to make sure the trucks turn and swivel freely, and have a little bit of “rock” to them. I’d check the frog and guard rails for plastic flash and remove it if present.
Brad
Oh that’s right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with.
If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds?
If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco.
If he can’t, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout.
Right now, we just don’t know who is the offender.
Rich
I’m not aware that he does, unless he has a recent purchase, but I will see if I can arrange another visit to help him troubleshoot - if he doesn’t track down the problem before.
Brad
First, thank you all for helping.
Let’s get the basics down.
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It is OK in reverse, I was mistaken.
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The truck on the tender swivels perfectly.
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When I run a straightedge along the track all the way past the frog it does not get hung up.
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It does not bind as I originally thought.
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It stops right when the rear wheels are on the rail where it is insulated.
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When it does get stuck I can wiggle the forward truck and it’ll get juice.
Conclusion? It appears as if something is lifting the forward truck causing it to lose power. The other locos are fine because they are long enough to pick up power. The tender’s wheels are close together.
I have not had a chance to put my VOM on it yet (I will though) but it has to be getting power because if I wiggle that truck or push down on it it moves. This only happens at the absolutely lowest setting of 1.
I removed some flash and filed down the frog base but I get the feeling something is lifting the truck.
One more clue and this is baffling. When it’s stuck if I push on the FOAM on the table it’ll move. So it seems like flexing the track helps too.
I don’t have anything at all to replace it.
Paul - use your NMRA gauge and check the gauge on the wheelsets. I’m suspecting they may be slightly wide or narrow.
Brad
One thing that I and others have written about before on this forum is the absolute necessity to build a stable base under a curved turnout. My curved turnouts used to sit on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which sits on a 1/2 inch plywood surface. A few years back, I began placing a large thin piece of styrene sheet completely under the entire curved turnout. That ensures that all of the rails on the turnout are level and even. I don’t know if that is your problem but from all of the symptoms that you mention, it is something to consider. Stabilize the curved turnout as much as possible.
Rich
I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.
And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.
Rich
Good advice Brad and Rich. I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks.
As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder. Now it’s so tight you couldn’t fit a fart in there let alone weight.
Here is another long shot thought.
You mention that at the slowest speeds, the rear truck of the tender stalls on the frog.
Is the front truck actually receiving power.
Yours is a steam engine, but I have had more than one diesel where only one truck is picking up power, resulting in stalls at slow speeds over the frog where the one truck picking up power is riding slowly over a dead frog. That would explain no stalls at higher speeds where the loco coasts over dead spots without stalling.
To test that, move the loco to a straight section of track and run it at the slowest speed. The lift up the rear portion of the tender and see if the loco is still receiving power from the front truck.
Rich
How about under the tender using steel brake weights?
Rich
OK, where do I get these weights and how do I install them?
Brad, I just checked with the gauge and they’re perfect.
Rich, trucks seem fine, because of the way they’re made there is a little slop to them despite how tight I make the screws.
And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this:
First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there’s no dead wheels.
It ONLY does this at 1. Not 2 or higher. I have no idea what’s going on. If I push down on the tender or the track in the slightest it’ll move. It HAS to be something not allowing the forward truck to get power at such a slow speed.
Carey, this helps a LOT. Thanks. I might just add feeders as I have a 4 x 8 and it’s powered by only one set of wires soldered to the track on the opposite side. Still have not had a chance to put the VOM on it but I doubt I’d find anything because just touching it with the leads will be enough to make it work if it is indeed a bad set of wires under the track.
It works on set
Now, we are going to really get basic.
Are the rails on the curved turnout clean?
Rich
Yes, I sanded them with 400 then 1200, then wiped them down.
Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them. You can buy them at any automotive supply store.
Rich
Thanks Rich but I don’t know if even THAT will help because if I put a heavy flashlight on the tender it will STILL stop. So it’s looking more and more like a track electrical problem.
This is making me [:(!]