New to this - and have the accuracy bug. I want to run legitimate and compatible equipment (HO), yet it’s tough finding out every detail. There are lots of knowledgeable folks out there, and I’d like to benefit from some of your expertise.
Did PRR ever run F7’s with heavyweight consists? For that matter, did Penn Central?
I appreciate any help. Like I said, I’ve got the bug, and if it’s not correct and accurate, it’ll bother me. Not only that - it won’t run.
F7A and F7B diesels were built as freight units. Heavyweight passenger equipment required steam heat, which F7 freight units were not equipped to provide. PRR purchased EMD FP7 units for shorter passenger runs at a time when they ran heavyweight cars. EMD’s FP units were equipped with steam boilers for passenger duty.
Penn Central generally ran a mish-mash of heavyweight and stainless equipment, with E7 and E8 passenger units. I’d suggest starting at the beginning with research, by way of books, rather than starting at the end and working back from equipment you’d consider running.
I have a couple of books on the PRR, namely Staufer’s “Pennsy Power II” and Calaroso’s Pennsy Elmira Branch. Books such as those would provide photos of what I think you’re hoping to model. regards, Bob
I don’t know the answer to the Op’s question, but it is incorrect to say that F7’s were strickly built as freight units . Steam boilers for passenger train heating was an available option on F7’s for railroads that desired them. For instance the Western Pacific bought F7 ABBA sets for freight service but one A unit in each set was boiler equipped so thet could be used on passenger trains. This was rarely done and eventually the boilers were removed. . The FP7 was basicaly a legthened boiler equipped F7 A. The extra length enabled them to carry more water. There were no FP7 B units. Boiler equipped F3’s and latter FP7’s were used on the California Zephyr.
Thanks for responding, Bob. A wealth of information. Apparently, I didn’t even know the difference between EMD F7’s and EMD FP7’s. I go online and try to find sites that will help clarify some of these details, but it seems a lot of “basics” are taken for granted, or not so well known to begin with…
I have quite a bit of HO rolling stock, steam and diesel road power ranging from the 1830’s to the 1970’s, and a few old atlas and Revell structures - most of which I inherited from my late father. Among other mismatched time period, or road power equipment, he ran a UP Pacific with a PRR heavyweight passenger train; close, but no cigar. The UP 4-6-2 also lacks the overhead headlight… although I now see Bachmann sells a PRR Pacific with the boiler front centered light. I’m not sure that’s accurate in itself. Lehigh Valley, I believe, and some of the western PRR owned routes used that type.
Back to the F7 deal… I’m trying to match up owned equipment: proper consists with correct power. Some of the purchases I’ve made included spare, or “extras” in the way of cabooses (another time period sensitive subject), engine shells, etc. Thanks to you, I now believe I can use the PRR ‘FP7’ AB shells to pull a PRR heavyweight consist. Correct me if I’m wrong. I also believe the PC is an FP9 A unit (5 grill sides). I know that PC came into the picture late, before Conrail (Any misstatements I make along the way - feel free to enlighten!), and the EMD FP9 in 1954.
I’ve also considered redecorating The Pacific to PRR, making it a viable? piece of road power for the PRR heavyweights. The headlight and Herald thing still bugs me, though. Unfortunately, this is only one of a multitude of issues I’ve created for myself, being a stickler for detail and accuracy. I don’t want to start into my problem with a Rivarossi 2-8-0, but what the hey. I want it to pull something North American, and am probably left with a n
DSchmitt, thanks for the info
I don’t have any plug nickels, but would gladly give them up. Follow-up on the subject - please correct me if I’m wrong.
F7 A or B - on the top rear of the cab, the plain cover plate vs. some sort of tubes, or small stacks? Does this denote EMD’s with boilers for heating purposes? 4 grill side F7 or FP7, and 5 grill side F9 or FP9? God help me - then there’s Phase I and II… single headlight vs. dual - and probably more I’m not aware of! I’m aware different styles and “options” were requested built for different roads, and I need to know. So much is not covered on any one site on the web, and I hope not to be an inconvenience.
I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
You are correct about the cover plates. F7’s with plain plates did not have boilers. Those with stacks had boilers.
The situation with grills and some other visible details is more complicated as there was some overlap in details during the manufacturing runs and the preferences of the purchasing railroads could also be a factor. . Also grill styles might be changed during shopping or rebuilding.
Single vs dual headlights was an option. I believe that single lights were freight, duel lights were passenger, but there were probably exceptions and sometimes lights were changed during the locos service life. Passenger and freight units usually had different gear ratios, but this did not prevent passenger units from used in freight service or freight units on passsenger trains, or even mixing freight and passenger units on a train. “Passenger” gearing allowed higher acceleration and speed . “Freight” gearing starting and hauling heavier trains.
Although the spotting features are helpful, the real differences between 7’s and 9’s are internal.
The subject is just too broad for comprehensive coverage coverage on a web site or even in a book especially on a large railroad like the PRR. . Also the variations and changes are not well documented today. Documentation has been desteoyed lost o
Once again, thanks much, DSchmitt. I feel much better about what I’m trying to do with the old antiquated stuff I have, and not letting them slip into de-regulation.
I’ll check out the site.
Understood, but the comment was taken out of context. The original question was about the Pennsylvania Railroad, which was what I was addressing. Online PRR diesel roster shows F7 units as Pennsy diesel class EF15, meaning EMD/Freight/1500hp (scroll down to 9000 series road numbers):
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/prr-diesels/emd.html
The Pennsy used a few 6-axle diesel models for passenger service, until late 1950s or 1960s, when auto travel took its toll. Models included EMD E7, E8, Alco PA1, Baldwin DR6-4-2000, FM Erie-builts. I would take an educated guess that PRR used boiler-equipped GPs and perhaps RS3s in shorter passenger runs or commuter service, as its main competitor New York Central did. If you’re looking to model PRR passenger service with heavyweight cars, I would look beyond F7’s for power. Granted, 6-axle diesels take up a more space and require larger turning radius than F7’s.
regards, Bob
The FP7s were the only PRR F units painted tuscan red.all others were green. The FP7s spent the bulk of their time in freight service. A definition of heavyweight cars is called for. If you mean nonstreamlined the bulk of coachs used in clocker service and commuter service were p70 which had clerestory rooflines but were modernized with four wheel trucks. If you want to model a specific train you need to check the make up of trains which lists car type and order available on keystone crossings website
All of this is great, guys! Got to go, but what a bunch of great people! Most MRR’ers just run whatever, and to be able to run anatomically correct trains - and even know what it is that’s running - is priceless!
Good Evening!
Site that might have some useful photos:
Re F-units in general (not PRR specific)…You could get say an F-7 A-unit with a steam generator, but there was very little space for water tanks. In a B unit, you didn’t have a cab, so you had a lot of space for water. Many railroads that bought Fs for passenger service bought them in A-B sets, with generators in the B units only.
The FP-7 was created because several northern railroads (particularly CP and NP) needed more steam generating for heating thru the Rockies in the winter. The FP-7 was an F-7 in an extended body, allowing for much larger water tanks. The FP-7 also proved usefull on shorter trains of say 3-4 cars that had to cover a long distance.
BTW NP had baggage cars with large water tanks that would run right behind the locomotives, and could be connected to the engines to provide water to steam generators in the diesels, both particularly A units.
Not sure on PRR, but many railroads used heavyweight cars on some trains up until Amtrak, particularly baggage and other ‘head end’ cars.
According to the Second Diesel Spotter’s Guide there were no FP9 's built for US railroads, only Canada and Mexico.
Interesting… I’ll have to look into that. Thanks, ALL!
Wikipedia article says Chicago & North Western had four FP9’s rebuilt from FT’s but I believe it is wrong.
Utah Railswebsite says the locomotives were FT’s rebuilt to F9M’ s It roster is based on the original manuscript of the roater used in the book Diesels of the Chicago & Northwestern by Paul K. Withers. The roster was compiled by Railroad Historian Don Strack of Utah Rails
I can probably get away with quite a bit, after all. It seems there were very few “strict” parameters around “what and when”. The more I read and research, It appears whatever is put on a model railroad probably happened at one time or another.
Model manufacturers have no problem with “stretching the truth”.
I suggest you join several of the PRR opportunities. 1. PRRT&HS about $40.00 with a quarterly award winning publication 2. Keystone Modeler available on the society web site for free and you can subscribe so they notify you when available. 3. PRR Fax on Yahoo Lots of experts who love minutia and finding answers to questions. 4, PRR Pro another Yahoo group that selects and works on modeling projects currently coaling towers. 5. A local chapter of the society where you can meet other PRR fans. Several are free to join. One thing is certain. Never say never with the PRR. As soon as something is considered absolute someone will produce a picture disputing it. The Standard railroad of the world also has more anomalies then thought possible.
Not looking to spend money when due diligence will ultimately triumph, further research has afforded me quite the ‘plethora’ of information on the web. I’ve found complete rosters of all diesels ever run by PRR, and sites like flikr that have all pictures available on the web. Almost anything you want to know can be found - if you really want.
Not only yours, but all with their experiences and first-hand knowledge, is something that should not be taken for granted and lost to the ages. With the advent of the internet, MAYBE, just maybe, the living history of today and the living memories of yesteryear will not be lost. One can only hope.
I rode the Kettle Moraine RR in North Lake Wisconsin close to 20 years ago, and recently discovered they had shut down excursion operations in 2001, Oct. 28. They ran a 2-truck Heisler and a Prairie class 2-6-2 Baldwin #9, on which my two, very young at the time, daughters also rode. I had in the 70’s done a little “Gandy Dancing” on a 1/4 mile spur of The Elgin, Joliet & Eastern, and was willing to volunteer my time towards track maintenance. Unfortunately, that never happened.
Below, I’ve added a link to a video of it’s last day in operation that actually makes me feel a little sad. I lived in Wisconsin for 20 years, also 10 years before that in Illinois, and saw the end of the Chicago & Northwestern commuter service into Waukegan. At one time I rode it from there to Ft. Sheridan (also gone) every day to work and back. There are still very visible remnants of the Milwaukee Road to this day. Alas, memories.